Category: Let's talk
THESE are DEFINITE "MUST-WATCH-ABSOLUTELY-IMMEDIATELY" videoes (click the "play-all" button):
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUW0Yheypp-C6J7gkzvXwuBGPyQ3_Xf2j
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFEWkkQPiHwcqrf0xSwHilA1ZY4MISPUD
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL944041952593F795
Given your history of anti-everything propoganda I'd highly recommend you tell us what these videos are or why they are so instantly important. It's common curtesy when posting a link to give us an idea what we're going to. Otherwise you're just a spammer.
ARe any of these Pastor Rick Wilds? According to Pastor Rick Wilds, whose videos are on Youtube, I as an atheist need to be cleansed from America, and that is why the Ebola virus has infected Americans. He conveniently leaves out that most of the infected have been Christian relief workers. Sad but true, relief workers are often first in the line of fire, and were I king for a day, they would get a Congressional Medal of Honor for their efforts.
That guy makes me think of the OP.
Anyway just a weigh-in from your friendly neighborhood Ebola-San.
I have nothing against your religious beliefs... you are free to believe what you
wish... but this does not mean that I or anyone else has to share your beliefs.
I am a Christian, just like you are, but the school of Christian thought differs
quite significantly from the school of thought that you believe.
So, thank you, Terrance, but no... I do not wish to watch those videos on
YouTube.
I have a lot of things against your beliefs, and against you in general, so even
if you tell me what the videos are, I'm still not gonna watch them.
Westcoastcdngrl, I just GOTTA ASK you this ONE, SIMPLE, DIRECT QUESTION: since YOU, YOURSELF, said: " I am a Christian, just like you are, but the school of Christian thought differs
quite significantly from the school of thought that you believe," and if SUCH a CLAIM shows ABSOLUTELY NO INCONSINSTENCY/INCONSISTENCIES, WHATSOEVER, how so?
actually, most people who have died from ebola have been poor black villagers from west Africa. just saying.
Yes, but this fellow claims only what he believes about American Ebola sufferers. His is an Americentric brand of Christianity.
And in point of fact, Ebola doesn't spread very well, because it kills the host before it can be carried to very many people. And it can only be spread through fluids; its lifespan in the open air is extremely short.
Actually I'm rather sick of the American media calling Ebola an epidemic, or even an African pandemic.
They all go to Youtubes 404 page anyway lol. Fail.
Leo, it can be called an African epidemic, because it is spreading there rather
rapidly. But that's because of religious ceremonies which require the kissing of
the dead body, and the eating of a meal beside the open grave of said body.
Those are two perfect ways to get ebola. In america, we're at absolutely zero
risk of having an ebola outbreak. It isn't going to happen because its not going
to make it across the ocean. Its just not. Calm the fuck down.
My my. Kissing a dead body. Some people are fucking stupid.
Religion, what can I say, its just chock full of stupid.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLTT0g_H0_x2rI18ne7-43Dn3UrU0FY_2k
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLbBWDwO9_GirvXvA7q7lldQDE1OWPBETi
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6wK0QBfeKYmNUeD3xc35nNqcpbkkor1F
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOmowZkAECBmCUkqt9r3ebcYLOr8XQ7bx
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLtgyhVjJr_P4WZBjPUtbPKDEFRwKKZfyr
The ebola discussion is kind of interesting, though I wish it were in a separate topic to icilate it.
The religion stuff--not so much. I'll never view these videos because I'm just not that bored. I'd rather play stones or something else inspiring.
Just my take on this topic.
We now return you to your regularly sponsored programming.
Bob
Cody, most of what I said was tongue in cheek. Of course I know there's no Ebola outbreak in the U.S., and further to what you said, most of our climate is simply not suitable for that virus.
Apparently I miscommunicated, or you misinterpreted, or both.
I found Rick Wilds amusing. Amusing enough, in fact, that if I were going to a Halloween party this year, I would go disguised as Rick wilds infected with Ebola, maybe pass out Red Bulls marked Red Ebola with a Sharpee to some fellow neighborhood skeptics I meet up with.
This shit just doesn't translate very well over the Internet though.
Ah, sorry if I misunderstood you Leo. You're right. Tongue in cheek doesn't
translate well through text.
Date: 09/29/14 - 5 days ago.
Category: ISLAM
Beheadings Now Being Conducted by Muslims on U.S. Soil
(Deuteronomy 8:19, 20)
***ASK BILL: Pastor Bill, this year our church is having "Trunk and Treat" on Oct 31st. Isn't the same thing the world does? I'm not sure this is something churches should be involved in or am I being old fashioned?
ANSWER: It always amazes me how churches follow the ways of the world. Sadly, our kids are being hit 24/7 with the ways of this world. Church should be the one place they can go to hear TRUTH. There is NOTHING wrong with having "fun," and many churches do have events on Halloween that incorporate Biblical Truth, not worldly celebrations. Oh, you are NOT being "old fashioned," and have every right to expect more out of the church. DON'T MISS LIVEPRAYER'S ANNUAL 2-PART HALLOWEEN SPECIAL COMING IN OCTOBER!!!
Beheadings now being conducted by Muslims on US soil!!! Last Friday, not even a week into the final 100 days of 2014 I warned you about in the Daily Devotional last Monday (9/22/14), a horrific act of terror by Islam took place on US soil in Moore, Oklahoma!
President Obama has systematically LIED to the American people and world by stating the various terror groups at war with the United States are not Muslims, that Islam is a "religion of peace," and that we are not at war with Islam. The vast percentage of the media has been intimidated into not telling people the truth about the false religion of Islam and used as a propaganda arm by Islamic advocacy groups like CAIR to put out a false narrative about Islam and their true motives and goals.
However, for the past 15 years online and 10 years on TV, despite the constant harassment and threats on my life, I have told you and the world the truth about this 1400-year-old lie from satan that leads the souls of its' followers to hell! I have taken on CAIR and the top Islamic advocates like Imam Feisal Rauf, the con-artist who pocketed millions from donors for the "Ground Zero Mosque" I eventually uncovered he never intended to build.
I have exposed the false theology of this "religion" that from day one has been about terror, war, intimidation, domination, and death. I have documented the historical record of its' founder Mohammed who was nothing but a pedophile, polygamist, and murderer!
I HAVE TRIED TO WARN PEOPLE THROUGH LIVEPRAYER.COM AND THE LIVEPRAYER TV PROGRAM OF THE VERY REAL POTENTIAL THAT GOD WOULD USE ISLAM AS AN INSTRUMENT OF HIS JUDGMENT ON THIS NATION FOR OUR SIN AND WICKEDNESS, JUST LIKE HE USED BABYLON TO JUDGE THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL FOR THEIR REBELLION!
WHAT HAPPENED IN MOORE, OKLAHOMA THIS PAST FRIDAY WAS A PREMEDITATED ACT OF TERROR BY ISLAM ON THIS NATION! TO CALL IT ANYTHING ELSE OR OFFER A FALSE NARRATIVE ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED IS SIMPLY AN ATTEMPT TO LIE TO PEOPLE IN ORDER TO DECEIVE THEM INTO THINKING IT WAS THE ACT OF A LONE, CRAZED INDIVIDUAL AND NOT HOW THE FALSE RELIGION OF ISLAM AND ITS' FOLLOWERS OPERATE WORLDWIDE EACH DAY!!!
The FACT is, Alton Nolan converted to Islam in the past year in prison. The US prison system has been an incredible feeder system for converts to Islam for decades. As it turns out, after converting to Islam, Nolan bought into the true beliefs of Islam, being guided through pre-recorded teachings by US born Islamic teacher and propagandist Anwar Al-Awlaki who was killed by a US drone in Yemen a few years ago.
It was Al-Awlaki who was largely responsible for encouraging the beliefs of Major Nidal Hasan, the Muslim who massacred 13 innocent people, injuring dozens more at Fr. Hood in 2009. Al-Awlaki's internet videos are viewed by Muslims worldwide to teach them about Islam and inspire them to give their lives to their 1400- year-old false religion from the pits of hell though "jihad," or holy war!
It has also been learned that Nolan worshipped at the mosque where the Boston bombing brothers attended as well as the mosque attended by Zacarias Moussaoui, the "20th hijacker" on 9/11 who is serving a life sentence in US Federal Prison for his participation in the events of that fateful day.
I have advocated for years closing ALL mosques in the United States in the intrest of national security since they are currently being used as training grounds for the "jihad" that will take place on US soil in the near future, and will become command and control centers for Islam when that day arrives!
I love you and care about you so much. If you are not seeing what is happening as the pouring our of God's judgment on this nation you are as blind and deaf as the vast percentage of the children of Israel were prior to God allowing them to be taken into captivity. Our time is up! We can no longer live in open rebellion to God Almighty and not pay the ultimate price!
What happened last Friday didn't happen in Iraq, or Syria, or some obscure place on the other side of the world, a Muslim in the name of his mythical god and false religion birthed in hell itself CUT OFF THE HEAD OF A WOMAN IN MOORE, OKLAHOMA! ARE YOU AWAKE YET?
Do you understand now my urgency and why I ask you to help me to do nothing more than maintain the platform we currently have to bring the "remnant" together and call this nation to repentance and to turn back to God while we still have that opportunity!
I don't ask you to help me to build buildings, or to buy private jets, luxury cars, mansions, hire a huge staff of people that have to be paid each week. I simply ask you to help me maintain the current proven ministry infrastructure we have in place that can bring the lost to faith in Jesus, pray for the hurting, and be that bold, uncompromised voice for God's Truth this world desperately needs in these final days!
***SEPTEMBER FINANCIAL UPDATE: As we head into the final 2 days of September, we still require $27,000 of the $40,000 for our September basic internet operations and the $25,000 we require for our September TV budget. We also immediately require the final $15,000 to bring our Chicago TV contract current.
That is $67,000 we require over these final 2 days!!! Please pray, since everyone can do that. For those who are able to make a sacrifce of $20, $50, $100, $1,000 or more, please seek the Lord what HE is calling you to do in these upcoming weeks to insure we end this month with all of our basic operations current!
During a conference call this past Monday with the executives at the Chicago station, we were given until TODAY, Monday (9/29) at 3pm EDT, to have $15,000 to the station or our contract will be cancelled. I am praying for one of our friends who has been blessed and able to send a special $15,000 gift to help me insure that balance is cleared up TODAY BEFORE 3PM EDT!
*If you can help me with this, please contact me ASAP at: bkeller@liveprayer.com
We have fought to keep this blessing God has bestowed on us since this past February reaching the 10 million in the Chicagoland market on a major local station every Mon-Fri from 11p-1a (Chicago time). I believe Chicago is a critical element to enable Liveprayer to help start a true revival in this nation and see the start of true repentance and turning our nation back to God and His Truth..BEFORE THIS YEAR IS OVER!!!
TO GIVE A GIFT TO LIVEPRAYER, you can use your major credit card on our secure server at: www.liveprayer.com under the "Donation" link, you can give using your PayPal account using my email address: bkeller@liveprayer.com , or you can mail your gift to: Liveprayer, 6660 46th Ave. North, St.Petersburg, FL 33709. All gifts to Liveprayer are 100% tax deductible.
Thank you for your love and prayers and generous sacrifce to help support God's work here at Liveprayer as we take our stand for HIM in these "last days!"
In His love and service, Your friend and brother in Christ,
Bill Keller
Date: 08/18/14 - 47 days ago.
Category: CHRISTIANITY
Corporate America Reflects Our Culture that doesn't Care What Christians Believe
(Luke 6:11, John 7:7, 15:18)
Corporate America reflects our culture that no longer cares what Christians believe, think, or do! A culture that marginalizes, dismisses, and boldly rejects Christians and our beliefs, doesn't even fear offending the Christian community when it comes to commerce. Target and Burger King are recent examples of Corporate America making business decisions they know are in direct contradiction to Christian beliefs, but made the tactical decision to move forward with those anti-Christian decisions believing it will not hurt their overall sales figures.
Target a business that has spend decades creating a "family friendly" image, has openly and publicly embraced gay marriage and the homosexual community. They even have a new ad campaign glorifying gay marriage and encouraging those involved in gay marriage to use Target for their "bridal registry." Burger King recently rolled out a new "Pride Whopper" in a rainbow wrapping, using their signature sandwich to cater to the homosexual community. Both of these major corporations clearly implemented these campaigns with the full knowledge and understanding they would be met with an outcry from the Christian community, but calculated that in the end that outcry would be from a few on the "fringe," and most who identify themselves as Christians would not care!
AS SOMEONE WHO UNDERSTANDS THE PULSE OF CHRISTIANITY AND OUR SECULAR CULTURE AS MUCH AS ANYONE, I CAN TELL YOU THAT THEIR CONCLUSION WAS 100% ACCURATE AND SPEAKS VOLUMES TO THE LACK OF INFLUENCE CHRISTIANS HAVE IN THIS NATION!!!
I have tried to warn you for 15 years now that this generation of gutless pastors that has created a generation of Biblically illiterate and gutless Christians! It has created a compromised church that actually promotes and glorifies sins like homosexuality, abortion, while giving up Biblical Truths to fellowship with the false religions, cults, and New Age beliefs of the day who never give up their non-Biblical beliefs! We have marginalized our faith, God's Truth, and the Gospel in the culture we live!!!
DO YOU UNDERSTAND NOW WHY I OFTEN RAIL AGAINST THOSE WHO COMPROMISE THE TRUTH OF THE BIBLE, THE GUTLESS PREACHING BY MOST OF THIS GENERATION OF PASTORS, AND THOSE WHO AMASS PERSONAL FORTUNES AND LUXURY ITEMS THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE GOSPEL AS THEY BUILD THEIR KINGDOM OVER THE KINGDOM OF GOD?
(A recent Barna study confirmed what I have been telling you for years now. Less than 10% of pastors surveyed ever preach on "controversial issues," fearing those issue will hurt their donations. So rather than preach against the social ills of our day that are leading this nation far away from God and Biblical Truth, they stay silent to keep the money rolling in! MONEY OVER TRUTH, MONEY OVER SOULS!!!)
IT HAS LED US TO THIS PLACE WHERE WE NO LONGER HAVE ANY REAL INFLUENCE ON OUR CULTURE. JUST LOOK AT THIS ABSOLUTE CHAOS AND BREAKDOWN OF OUR SOCIETY WE WITNESS EVERY DAY DUE TO REMOVING GOD'S TRUTH AS HOW WE ARE TO LIVE OUR LIVES. WE ARE SO MARGINALIZED THAT THE MEDIA FOR THE PAST DECADE, AND NOW EVEN CORPORATE AMERICA, NO LONGER FEARS US OR OUR RESPONSE TO THE DECISIONS THEY MAKE THAT ARE IN COMPLETE OPPOSITION TO OUR BELIEFS!
A few weeks ago, after 15 yrs I was vindicated by the government no less, having been called a liar and every pejorative you could imagine for telling people the truth that less than 2% of our society has chosen to engage in perverted, unnatural, unhealthy sex with people of the same sex. It was reported by the CDC that the actual percentage was 1.7% of our population! I also reject those who claim 70% or more in this nation are Christians. There may be that many identifying themselves as a Christian, but actual born-again men and women who have given their heart and life to Christ by faith is probably around 10%. THAT IS STILL 5 TIMES THE NUMBER OF THOSE WHO HAVE CHOSEN TO ENGAGE IN SEX WITH PEOPLE OF THE SAME SEX!
Why do those who follow satan, who will be losers for all eternity, stop at nothing to achieve victory during this life, while those who follow Jesus, who have the assurance of eternity in Heaven with God their Creator, sit back and accept defeat during this life?The fact is churches, ministries, and works of God have NO PLAN for victory over the social ills of our day. Satan's troops slaughter 4,000 babies every 24 hours, work tirelessly to advance the radical homosexual agenda, gambling, pornography, and other social issues that plague our culture. Why don't our churches, ministries, or numerous Christian organizations who raise hundreds of millions annually even have a plan to achieve real victory???
While Liveprayer works to call this nation back to God's Truth, people to faith in Jesus Christ, we are also bringing together the remnant who will not compromise the Truth of the Bible or bow their knee to Baal and take a stand in our culture for righteousness. If the reprobates can take a stand for their beliefs, invoke their will on society, why can't the righteous take a stand for our beliefs and invoke our will on society?
I love you and care about you so much. Understand this. Our culture no longer even pretends to respect our beliefs. We are discounted and dismissed. Like the servants of satan work and work until they get victory, we must start working and working until WE get victory!
I AM NO LONGER INTERESTED IN JUST IMPACTING LIVES AND THE ETERNAL SOULS OF MEN FOR CHRIST, BUT IN ALSO IMPACTING OUR CULTURE. WE HAVE MORE CHURCHES, MORE MINISTRIES, MORE WORKS OF GOD THAN EVER BEFORE IN THE HISTORY OF CHRISTENDOM, YET OUR CULTURE IS IN SPIRITUAL FREEFALL. WHY? VICTORY IS NOT OUR GOAL. WELL THAT IS CHANGING. WE HAVE VICTORY OVER THE SOCIAL ILLS OF OUR DAY AS OUR GOAL AND THE PLAN AND ABILITY TO ACHIEVE THAT VICTORY!!!
What I need now are some bold and fearless men and women of God who will stand with me and help me lead this nation back to God and see these victories won. I know everyone is busy with their own lives. This is not another event to be part of. This is not another program to plug into. This is the first time anyone has seriously tried to mobilize a true army of the faithful for the sheer purpose of leading the nation back to God and Biblical values, people to faith in Christ, while attacking the social ills of our day. I need men and women with vision, with leadership skills, and with a heart for Christ that will enable them to fight with me to see victory. I need some sold out men and women of God whose only goal is VICTORY! I can't do this alone, will you join me?
In His love and service, Your friend and brother in Christ,
Bill Keller
Ok, kissing the dead body is their culture.
And, dude seriously? Go read your Bible and quit posting this nonsense on the boards. I didn't read a word of that foolishness. I bet before yu posted all of that, you didn't do any research about Islam and nothing else you talk about. All you do like millions of other people, is go off of what an ignorant pastor has told you because they are in denial about Christianity fading away.
yeah. Constant capitalization, poor spelling, and a critical need for an editor make one's point valid... Riiiiiiiiight...
And the government exonerated him? Puh-lease!
I will post the following for the benefit of those who don't get into politics much. If you're a Christian, note when I say 'Christianity', I don't mean your particular experience, I mean the system of power in the U.S.
This guy now whines that corporate America isn't listening to Christians? Let's pretend it's all true for a minute.
Who by definition support corporate-friendly policies in the U.S.? Who support policies that enable global corporate conglomerates to act on their own interests, and not the interests of the nation they run to for military defense? Who backed the overthrow of the republic of Venezuela in the 1950s in order to instantiate the United Fruit Company's government? Take a look at Chiquita Banana commercials on Youtube, early ones.
The Christian Right, the Moral Majority have been closely linked to the free market.
Now, I'm not a statist myself, so let's just step outside of Sunday school for a minute, and consider (engage the frontal lobe) for a second what free market means: It doesn't mean Christian market. It means free market. Competition of ideas, products, and services. For all its faults, I know there are many even though I acknowledge its benefits, the free market only responds to consumer demand. I cannot understand how Christians concoct that there is some conspiracy in the free market domain. You're supposed to be completely Reagan certified, bona fide free market people. Now, I understand that economics textbooks are dry, and that many subscribe because that's "what God Wants," plus a couple phrases here and there for an apologetic narrative.
But people who are intellectually honest and engage in the free market understand that their ideas and products may not make it. When a group turns to the Church in response to the market, it's no different than Stalin turning to the State.
I may totally disagree with Chick Fill'A's position on gay marriage and yet I still support their competitive right to buy and sell and trade, and be responded to by gays and gay sympathizers, and play the victim, or take the high road, or however their corporate branding policies might dictate. But, they have a huge demographic: you, who support it. And, just like Ray Crock with McDonalds having his primary business as real estate and not hamburgers, Chick Fill'a may have a primary business model of selling values. That's the market. You asked for it, you got it, now get the ass out there and compete. This is precisely the world the Jerry Fallwells and the Pat Robertsons dreamed of. Only, they didn't think far enough to anticipate the fluidity and lack of stagnation that are characteristics of a free market exchange.
If this guy were respectable, he would have written to you all saying, "We can do better than Burger King!" "I'm looking for great innovative minds like yours to change the face of fast food, and we can market values just like Chick Fill'A does, only better!"
But they'll never do this. It's the free market that you asked for, many of us can understand and appreciate in all its forms, and now you have to put on the pants and deal with the fallout. Free markets always mean you can be outgunned. And this guy isn't even playing. He's just armchair quarterbacking. The armchair quarterback is the least respectable of positions. You wouldn't even have an evangelical fundamentalist American Christianity were it not for the free market. That market, Thomas Jefferson's market, gave it to you. I'm not putting here what Thomas Jefferson wrote on Christianity: anyone who wants can google and read the letters he wrote to his nephew. But he, an atheist, Thomas Payne, an atheist, and many others, gave you this free market, which is in large part how we have everything from WWJD on bracelets and "Of Pandas And People" in biology classrooms. But the market wasn't molded, shaped, then cookie cut, then handed to you in swaddling clothes. It's as fluid as the populations who trade in it. Tough darts. Atheists who brought you the free market understood that religion would be marketed, and had the manhood and honor to write that off as a consequence, a tradeoff. Time to learn a little bit, and realize the market changes as the populations change. Then, if you want to get out there and innovate, sell your values under a business front like the old head shops of the 1980s, have at it. Been done before, it's being done now in the Republican Party, and it will be done again. It's really unbecoming of a conservative to cry over competition in the marketplace. It's hard for me to believe that a Christian even wrote this: the free market is as important to them as faith or salvation or the Bible. I've been in conversations at the churches the Wife went to, where I and they actually agreed, me with libertarian leanings, on a majority of an issue. But then one critical question where globalism is trumping national sovereignty, and I'm as good as atheist to them. The current corporatocracy is that important to them. So how then can they, when the corporatocracy - or a member of it, - supports homosexuals, can they in the least bit get upset and still maintain any intellectual credibility at all? I mean, they support international corporate conglomerates compromising the sovereignty of the U.S. all the time, and they were hailing their support of the Supreme Court decision RE: campaign finance, where Chinese companies could easily buy candidates in American government. So what's it to them if a few gays get some support as an improved branding and advertising strategy? I'm beside myself, and it's hard for me to concede a Christian actually wrote this.
I gotta be REAL QUICK, because I'm running VERY LATE, but I WILL CONTINUE what I'll START NOW, LATER: "WHAT PROFFITS ANY of us to GAIN the ENTIRE WORLD, ONLY to FORFEIT our VERY SOUL?"--TO BE CONTINUED
That particular platitude does not wash except with the lowest classes. You think the top 1% who control Christianity believe that maxim? Why then are they so invested in politics, keeping an open free market look-alike while in fact upholding an international corporatocracy? Why is Christianity so tightly linked with one of the most powerful political parties in America? With the overthrow of the Venezuelan republic? The Battle of the Gods in the Middle East? International oil? Tobacco?
I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but the maxim simply doesn't apply. It can't. Except to the sheeple masses. The Powers that be in that religion have a serious amount to gain economically. I'm not talking your TV evangelists selling halfhearted attempts at preparedness kits, or handkerchiefs allegedly handled by themselves or some spiritual figure. I'm talking the Halls of Power, to whom every Christian of the evangelical persuasion must in point of fact owe their allegiance, since those are the influences which have created it to begin with, and in all statistical likelihood, you only espouse said beliefs because they have successfully marketed them, and their leadership, to you. They are statists, as much as Stalin was a statist, only they would have the church be the state.
Google Christian reconstructionism. Its influence is everywhere in evangelical Christianity. In fact, evangelical Christianity as we know it would simply not exist without reconstructionism. The reformed or more so-called liberal versions could, but if you're evangelical, you probably think those aren't real Christians, just like ISIS wouldn't consider Faraaz and other moderate muslims to be real muslims.
The jig is up, son. A side effect they never dreamed of, when they raised a whole generation through republiChristianity and Reagan's global so-called Free market. Your heaven and your hell have mated, and this is the spawn many of us have forever rejected.
And before you claim that their holdings are for the god or for the people:
It's simple, son, it's called a shell corporation. Religions have an easier time of it, as they need not jump through many loopholes. It's the law, they can do it. In a free market exchange, I as an atheist would not change that law. Let them do it, let the rest of us watch and comment upon it vociferously. It is the free market after all. And let us gauge the credibility of said religion by how it protects its holdings, in particular political holdings.
You only imagine that all atheists want to take that away from you. But Thomas Payne and Thomas Jefferson both realized how frail and weak religion is, and that providing the wellfare state as we have for it, giving it all kinds of special entitlements privileges only underscores its weakness and frailty. Were that not the case, Christians and others would go out in the streets, claim that their faith was strong enough they could compete just like everybody else, and reverse the entitlements on their religions. But they won't, because it isn't strong.
Let us continue, then, to maintain these special privileges of religion in terms of taxation and other things, and demonstrate for all to see that faith is not strong but weak. And I'm not talking faith-based charities, that is a different issue entirely. I'm talking the tribal sensationalist idea that a religion because it is a religion gets a whole host of entitlements including tax exemption.
That is because faith is no "strong tower," ... the "righteous run into it", to defend it, lest it fall down flat.
I dare the OP to challenge anything I've put forth here. You're the one promulgating the American Evangelical brand with its political leanings. So come on out, son, and put 'em up. Let's see what you got: something besides cut and paste. Just remember, as a free but moral society, we give entitlements to the weak, not the strong: to the unable, not the able. And the more entitlements one gets, the closer they are to being wards of the state. Is that what you really want?Or are you really from the free market, and going to ask for your own autonomy as religions, and thereby take no exemptions except for doing charity work, and otherwise function as a for-profit corporation.
Or are Thomas Payne and Thomas Jefferson, a pair of atheist capitalists, right about you?
Well, REGARDLESS of ALL of your "EXPRESSIONS-OF-ABSOLUTE-GRANDEUR-WORDS" babble, it's PERFECTLY OBVIOUS that you TRULY FAIL to recognize that a TRUE CHRISTIAN isn't one who follows CHRISTIANITY, but who follows JESUS. Now, whether or not this is SUPPOSED to be a DIRECT/INDIRECT/NONE-AT-ALL-COUNTERCHALLENGE, I told you COUNTLESS TIMES BEFORE that YOUR BATTLE/FIGHT/WAR (whatever you wanna call it) isn't with ME; it's with GOD, HIMSELF, and the PERFECT GUARANTEE is this: HE CERTAINLY DOESN'T wanna fight YOU, ME, ANYBODY, AT ALL, which is EXACTLY WHY HIS OFFER STILL STANDS, but it WON'T stand for LONG, so if you STILL wanna play this game, which you're TOTALLY FREE to do, you'll never win.
All right. So, which Jesus?
That may sound silly to you, something like saying "Which Terrance?"
But we have Terrance's own, unedited, not-been-translated words. Words that have not been canonized, selected, rejected. We could even look Terrance up online and find the date / time / place of birth as well as any criminal convictions, or any instances of Terrance being the victim of a crime if it was taken to the police.
We have no such evidence for jesus. Luke talks about a census that never happened, in a manner counter to the methods used by the Roman Government. There was never a Roman census where people were required to return to their town of lineage. That makes no practical sense from a taxation standpoint.
There is no evidence the trial by the Jewish San Hedrin ever happened: They would have met before or after that festival, and they were required to wait 24 hours to render a verdict. Also, the Pilate of the Bible never existed: He's painted as a mealy-mouthed, wishy-washy character.
The Pilate from history was quite the opposite. Even by Roman standards, he was too quick to perform crucifixions and other gruesome public tortures. There is no recorded event detailing this Roman/Jewish custom of releasing any prisoners during the Passover festival. Especially a rebel like the alleged Barabas? Of course the local population wants its freedom fighter back. But do you think the occupying government would just casually hand off a rebel leader like that? No rational sense at all, and no historical record of any of this.
Yes, I know there are apologetic spins for all this stuff. But if you ever read Roman history, by Romans, translated from Latin to English -- I'm too lazy to have learned the original (because Latin.
So: Which Jesus?
The Jesus of the Catholics? You owe them for over a thousand years' worth of editing, copying, translating and maintaining many of your texts.
The Jesus of Martin Luther? He claimed the woman's place is to bear children, and should she die doing it, let her die; that's what she's there for. Not an exact quote, but close.
How about the Jesus of Westcoastcdngrl Kate and her kind? Why is that one less than the American Evangelical kind? Hers is propagated throughout Western Europe, from what I understand, although I admit to not knowing much about that one.
So since there are so many, you'll have to tell us which one, and convince us of why that one is the best, most reliable, most historically accurate, most statistically likely to exist. It's a tough one; I don't envy your situation.
NEITHER do I EVER envy YOURS, Leo. Even though it's ABSOLUTELY NO MISTAKE that you're HIGHLY INTELLIGENT, for whatever worth THAT'S supposed to amount to, you're JUST as EQUALLY FOOLISH, and as I told you in my LAST post, YOUR ISSUE ISN'T with ME, because I'M not the one that you'll DEFINITELY BE FORCED to ANSWER TO one day; I'M only giving you a "HEAD'S-UP," but if you choose to ignore it, which you're DEFINITELY FREE TO DO--even GOD, HIMSELF, won't interfere with WHATEVER DECISION that YOU MAKE, UNLESS you ABSOLUTELY WANT HIM TO, you're TOTALLY ON YOUR OWN, ONLY to face the VERY ETERNAL CONSEQUENCE OF SUCH DECISION.
Blah blah blah, ramble ramble ramble. I really have to wonder why christians
are ok with people like this being in their circle. If it were up to me I'd have
traded him to the helenistic polytheists by now. It makes me so glad I'm part of
an enlightened and intelligent group.
Ok Terrance, so you have stated multiple times that I'm in danger of hell fire.
How about Christian perspective on Hell?
Take a look.
Any Christians who hold to the dominant Augustinian view of eternally keeping billions alive and conscious for the express purpose of tormenting them, take a look at the above site and see what you think. Better yet, take a look, then come back and educate us on why that site is wrong.
The site is TruthAboutScripture.com
the link is their position on the Hell situation Terrance is talking about.
Or you could check out TentMaker.org, another Christian site.
These people claim to hold to Scripture as authoritative, just as you do. So in case they're right, take a look. Or in case they're wrong, and fooling the rest of us, take a look and educate us on what on their site is wrong.
I must say, these days, I don't have a very good view of God. If this is the type of people he has representing him, he's done a great job of turning me away. Ugh, just, no thank you.
Right anthony? If I were God, I'd have come down from heaven and went
"whoa, hold on there poindexter. You aren't allowed to talk about me."
Again, my own perspective here...
I agree with Cody And Leo. This is the kind of stuff which creates the need for damage control. There's a difference between showing your a Christian by leading by example, and trying to spread the gospel through action and word ... and whatever this is. Honestly ... Terrence is it? What you're doing, and what Pastor Bill everybody is evil except me Keller are doing are not going to turn anyone to believe in God. Honestly, if he is being paid - if this is his job, then I would question the motives around his words. Had I not been a Christian already, drawn to believing by a much different experience than that which you are granting us here, I would be just as frustrated as Cody, Leo and everyone else by these posts. Because let's face it, they are not portraying either God or Christianity in a very appealing light. And in spite of the though shalt and though shalt nots which don't all jive with secular society, "My" Jesus is the son of a god of love, understanding and perfect justice whose greatest desire for us is for us to believe in his Son, strive to do the best we can, and ultimately to return home. This burning eternally in a literal lake of fire and brimstone, being physically tormented ... That just doesn't equate to such a God to me. And yes, I know it's in the bible, but while Hell is a real state of being, it is more of a state of mind and being based on a perfect knowledge of ev3erything we were, everything we are, and everything we've done. I can be more specific if anyone cares, but I have a hard time looking at these posts, or situations like where parents disown their children and dquate such things to my interpretation of Christianity. And yes, I'm perfectly aware of what Pastor willy thinks of my church. Hell, what some people here think of it too for that matter.
Well, I know it's been ALMOST a week since ANYONE'S posted to this topic, but JUST IN CASE if there MIGHT be any response/responses after THIS post, all I have to say is: on the VERY DAY that ALL OF US, that includes ME AND YOU, have to account for ALL that's said and done in THIS LIFE, THESE BOARD TOPICS that involve THIS SUBJECT MATTER will DEFINITELY be included.
I love how he calls Leo's posts a bunch of babble. Fucking hipocrit.
I think that last post from the OP must be the first time he's ever put a somewhat coherent sentence together.
In the day I am thrown into the OP's version of Hell, I will not so much as utter a sound, because like the heros of old, I would not deign to allow the savages to see or hear me suffer.
Date: 10/18/14 - 0 days ago.
Category: HALLOWEEN
Halloween - Part 1 of 2
(Romans 12:1-2; Titus 2:12)
Halloween - Part 1 of 2
Should Christians celebrate Halloween? No! What the world will celebrate on October 31 is not anything that a Christian should be part of. The origin of what we know of as Halloween began in 5th century B.C., Celtic Ireland as a holiday marking the end of summer on October 31 known as Samhein (sow-en).
The pagan Celts believed on that day, the disembodied spirits of all those who had died throughout the preceding year would come back in search of living bodies to possess for the next year. It was believed to be their only hope for the afterlife. The Celts believed all laws of space and time were suspended during this time, allowing the spirit world to intermingle with the living.
Naturally, the still living did not want to be possessed. So on the night of October 31, villagers would extinguish the fires in their homes, to make them cold and undesirable. They would then dress up in all manner of ghoulish costumes and noisily paraded around the neighborhood, being as destructive as possible in order to frighten away spirits looking for bodies to possess.
The Romans adopted the Celtic practices as their own. But in the first century A.D., Samhain was assimilated into celebrations of some of the other Roman traditions that took place in October, such as their day to honor Pomona, the Roman goddess of fruit and trees. The symbol of Pomona is the apple, which might explain the origin of our modern tradition of bobbing for apples on Halloween. The thrust of the practices also changed over time to become more ritualized. As belief in spirit possession waned, the practice of dressing up like hobgoblins, ghosts, and witches took on a more ceremonial role.
The custom of Halloween was brought to America in the 1840's by Irish immigrants fleeing their country's potato famine. At that time, the favorite pranks in New England included tipping over outhouses and unhinging fence gates.
Since the eighth century, the Catholic Church has celebrated All Saints' Day on November 1 to celebrate the known and unknown Saints whom the Church has canonized. The night before the celebration of All Saint's Day is known as All Hallow's Eve ("Hallows" mean "saints" both mean "holy ones" as in "Hallowed be thy name"). So, Halloween means "the evening before All Saint's Day."
You can see from the pagan roots of Halloween why this has become the most important day to those who worship satan or choose to live in rebellion to God and the TRUTH of His Word. There is NOTHING about this day that honors God, remembers God, or has anything to do at all with God. It is, quite honestly, a celebration of those who oppose God and all that He stands for. THIS is why it's a day Christians should NOT celebrate nor be part of in any way.
I love you and care about you so much. Tomorrow, Part Two of this series is titled, "A Christian's Response to Halloween." Do we hide in our homes with the lights off? Do we all go to church and hide in the basement so the devil doesn't get us? What exactly should a Christian be doing on Halloween? I will give you a hint. It will be a bold call to action. I can think of no better night to see souls won for Christ than on Halloween.
DO NOT MISS PART TWO TOMORROW AS WE CELEBRATE A NEW HOLIDAY ON OCTOBER 31ST THAT WILL HONOR JESUS CHRIST, THE KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS!!!
In His love and service, Your friend and brother in Christ,
Bill Keller (www.liveprayer.com)
P.S. I'll post PART 2 either LATE MONDAY NIGHT or MID-EARLY-TUESDAY MORNING.
I just had a pretzel. Yum.
Date: 10/19/14 - 3 days ago.
Category: HALLOWEEN
Halloween - Part 2 of 2
(Romans 12:1-2; Titus 2:12)
Halloween - Part 2 of 2
A Christian's response to Halloween. As I was in prayer eleven years ago about Halloween and what God wanted me to share during that time, part of my focus was on satan and how he operates. The Bible calls him an "angel of light." He is a great imitator. He takes the perfection of God and perverts it. So as I was praying, God poured into my spirit that it is time for Christians worldwide to rise up on the most important day of the year for satan, Halloween, and claim that day for God!
The first step, is to make it a special day for Christians worldwide. If Hallmark cards and candy companies can make up holidays to sell greeting cards and chocolate, why can't the church? I am proud to announce that until our Lord returns, October 31 will now be "Witnessing for Jesus Day." This holiday was started ten years ago by the 2 million worldwide who are part of Liveprayer, and we will continue to promote it as well as follow through to make this a legitimate, recognized holiday every October 31!
The goal is for Christians to share their faith in Jesus Christ with at least 3 people during the day. If every Christian worldwide shared their faith in Christ with 3 people, it would literally turn the world upside down over night. The world will be "witnessing" their rebellion of God with their Halloween parties, their costumes, and satanic services. THIS IS THE PERFECT DAY for Christians to witness to this lost world that we live in, that Jesus Christ is "The Way, the Truth, and the Life."
What else can Christians do on our new holiday? PLENTY! Every community needs churches to put on "Hell House" or "Judgment House" productions to counter the haunted houses the world promotes. Make sure your home is well lit and inviting for children out trick or treating. In addition to candy, give them a gospel tract or a little "Gospel of John" booklet. Also, pray with each group of kids before they leave. Your church should have the resources to get tracts and the Gospel of John booklets at a very low cost.
NO CHILD SHOULD COME TO YOUR HOME AND LEAVE WITHOUT KNOWING THAT JESUS IS LORD!
For those with children, take them out trick-or-treating! Have them dress up as Bible characters. Let them go door to door for candy, BUT, in return for the candy, they should give the homeowner a tract or a Gospel of John booklet. GOD CAN USE THESE CHILDREN TO HELP SPREAD THE MESSAGE OF CHRIST TO PEOPLE THAT WILL NEVER GO TO CHURCH!!!
Churches, instead of holding an alternative to Halloween party at the church, should get the children involved in evangelizing their neighborhoods! They have the perfect excuse to go door to door on this night. God can use these children to share the hope and love of Christ with people that will never hear the message any other way. DON'T UNDERESTIMATE HOW GOD CAN USE THE CHILDREN ON THIS NIGHT!!!
So, let's review. We now have a new Christian holiday. It is, "Witnessing for Jesus Day," and will be celebrated every year on October 31st. It will be a day for Christians worldwide to witness to others what Jesus Christ has done in their life. We will have churches in every community putting on "Hell House" or "Judgment House" productions as an alternative to the haunted house productions of the world. Christians will make their homes inviting for children out trick or treating, and in addition to candy, give them a Gospel Tract or Gospel of John booklet. Children of ALL AGES will become mighty witnessing agents for the Lord. They will dress up as Bible characters and go out into their neighborhoods to get candy, BUT, will give the homeowner a Gospel tract or Gospel of John booklet.
I love you and care about you so much. There is no reason a Christian should have to fear Halloween, nor is there any reason a Christian should have to participate in the way the world celebrates Halloween. It actually is a perfect opportunity to go on the offensive and make this a day to celebrate witnessing our faith to this lost and dying world. What better day than the day the world celebrates rebelling against God--HALLOWEEN!!!
I will be praying for you. I pray that you become bold and part of the eleventh annual "Witnessing for Jesus Day." For the Christian, sharing our faith is not an option, but is a commandment from God. It is something that we should be doing EVERY day. But there is no better day of the year than Halloween for Believers worldwide to share their faith in Jesus Christ with this lost world. THAT, my friend, needs to be a Christian's response to Halloween!!!
In His love and service,
Your friend and brother in Christ,
Bill Keller (www.liveprayer.com)
P.S. Stay tuned for the launching of "SOUNDING THE ALARM: 2!)
Cute, but I'm still going to sacrifice goats and dance around a bonfire naked.
Have it YOUR WAY, then--as for ME, along with OTHERS, I'M celebrating "WITNESSING FOR JESUS DAY," INSTEAD--no, I'm CERTAINLY NOT EVER SAYING that I'm this "MODEL CHRISTIAN" that SUPPOSEDLY OUTSHINES the REST of the "WORLD that's FULL OF HEATHENS," because UNFORTUNATELY, I'M a "HEATHEN," TOO. It's just that I'VE CHOSEN to be "FORGIVEN," NOT "PERFECT," which ABSOLUTELY NONE OF US could EVER be, ANYWAY.
Pagans are usually interesting people, those that are tolerant of atheists anyhow.
I think I'll buy some mead. Mead is fermented honey. A little bit of private heritage celebration. Don't drink too much of it though, the sugar content means you'll get the headache of your life the next day. Hence the term meadbanger.
I think I'll skip class and tell my professor that I was dressed as the invisible woman.
Or I can go as a bat.
I'm going as a guy with no eyes, literally. Poppin' my prosthetics out.
Like I said: have it YOUR way, if that's what you want!
All right, I'm not going to convince Terrance with this, but I hope someone who is a fence-sitter, maybe a closet doubter, might think hard:
If you're American, you have some pretty strong feelings about what happened on 9/11. It was on our front, and it was an attack on one of the major economic centers. In that blast, both in the Pentagon and Twin Towers, as well as Flight 93, many people died. Several thousand. Statistically, a good number are in Hell, according to the Christians. Now, these people get to burn alive and be kept alive for the sake of torture, down there, right next to Osamu Bin Laden and their original killers, the terrorists who destroyed them.
Not only that, but every man, woman and child who is related to these people, unless they converted to an acceptable brand of evangelical Christianity, will also go there when they die.
What you have is a distinction without a difference. The god claims to distinguish between Bin Laden / his cronies and the victims, but in reality, there is no practical difference in treatment of the perpetrators and the victims. Does a god like this make any sense at all to you?
Here's what's even worse: If some of us had gotten our wish, I'm one of these, and we had brought back osamu Bin Laden for trial in the U.S, the outcome would have been different. Statistically speaking, he would be likely to convert to Christianity in prison in the interim between his detainment and his ultimate execution by the State. So then, Bin Laden in that situation would actually be in Heaven while the victims, the ones he is allegedly now sorry he killed, would be burning away down there, and according to thinkers like St. Thomas Aquinas, part of his reward is the screams of the damned. You can find that in Revelation 20, I believe the passage is. They're tormented in the presence of the Lamb.
The often celebrated Susan Atkins and Tex Watson, two peple who savagely murdered innocent residents of the Bellaire neighborhood in California in 1969, under the orders of Charles Manson, will go to Heaven because they have found Jesus. And their victims are even now in Hell. At least this is statistically likely to be the case, based on the circles they ran in and their lack of allegiance to Christianity. So the god sacrificed himself to himself to save Sharon Tate from himself, but if Sharon Tate didn't believe it, he couldn't save her from himself. And if Sharon Tate's murderer believed it later, had second thoughts from a prison cell, he saves the murderer from himself in order to "glorify" himself.
So the god, it seems, cannot meaningfully discern between perpetrator and victim. That god could allow a rape victim to suffer eternally, while the rapist got a pass from prison and is now watching her burn from above.
I hope this causes some on here to think. Consider. what does this dominant god of the east actually look like when we consider these things?
Anyway, happy Halloween; these gods of the east, these fire gods of war and death, are far more terrifying than a headless horseman or a bag of bones creaking, or any of the small comfortable scares we all play along with on that day.
No Leo, that doesn't make the least bit of sense to me. Your post did, but the idea of the God I believe in doing this? No, which is why I'm LDS and not an "evangelical Christian". To me what you just described goes against everything I believe about both God, And Jesus (and yes, though they are one in purpose, they are two seperate beings according to what we believe (and what most passages in the Bible are clear about). By that logic, you could "get saved" then go off and do whatever you want, and damn the consequences. Want to be a serial killer? Great! Want to molest some kids, good on ya. Eat, drink for tomorrow we die and it will be well with us. Lie a little, kill, do what thou wilt, as long as you got jesus, and you do it in his name. Does that make sense to anyone at all? Not to me. Faith in Christ is paramount. But there is also accoundability and repentents - true, honest repentents. Faith is nothing without works. Works alone will not save us, But faith alone does not garontee our exhaultation either. If it did we would be living in a much darker world.
Which brings me to Halloween. Regardless of its origins, (and really we've already stolen one holiday from the "Pagans") it is not an evil thing to me. Satan only has as much power as we are willing to grant him, and All Hallows Eve isn't some magical day where he gets stronger. What it is is an excuse for some people to act like idiots and do things they might otherwise only be slightly less likely to do. If you're going to raise a ruccus, egg houses, deface public property and generally be a sticky little dingleberry dangling from the chode of the group you follow, you don't need Halloween to give you permission. I can't vouch for the rest of the world, but the vast majority of the people I know hand out candy to little kids, go to halloween parties - where yes, there can bge drinking and drugging - but no more than anywhere or any time else.
Perhaps instead of worrying about halloween we should be more concernned about things that actually are evil. Rape, Child prostitution, human traffficking, spousal and child abuse, biggotry, terrorism, the environment, Honey BooBoo. We Christians - hell, everybody need to start focusing on the true evils of this world rather than such trivial matters. A night where people dress up as monsters, demons and television characters? Really? ... Really?
BG I'll say this: You display a certain courage that only one in your situation can. You belong a Christian sect, one that most evangelicals historically have not acknowledged as Christian. So you get guff from the Christians, and you get guff from some of us atheists. I don't know what the pagans think, they tend to not weigh in on such things. But you have been the only voice of counterweight to Terrance's posts coming from the faith community. To some extent Westcoastcdngrl also. But your last post illustrates this. No other Christians take on posts that we put out, or the counter-narrative to Terrance's writing. You've been eloquent and descriptive. It's this description of why you think what you think which I appreciate, from one human being to another. I don't know if we'll see any others explain themselves, or better yet, an evangelical take apart some of our posts and explain their viewpoint.
Ironically, this failure on their part is exactly what did in the Occupy movement and even some other recent movements where there was noise, but anyone putting forth arguments were not systematically opposed by the movement.
Anyway, I appreciate what you have to say, even though I don't believe there are any gods out there. The explanation of how and why ultimately matters. So, thank you.
You're welcome Leo, and thank you for your words. I defenetly don't have all the answers, but I am sincere in my faith, young in it as I am. I am a Christian, and honored to be so. But I take seriously the charges people like you and Cody level against Christianity as a whole, because they are not without marrit. Though I find it discurteous to blanket all Christians and Christian sects the same,, and though sometimes, such as the scriptures I believe people merely misunderstand either the words or the big picture, Some christian groups and individuals have been responsible for some pretty terrible stuff over the centuries, things I do not condone and that I believe stand in stark contrast to the teachings of Jesus Christ. I whole-heartedly believe such individuals will be held accountable for their actions, as will we all. The philosophies of dark-hearted men are often poison when mingled with scriptures they believe to give holiness to their deeds. Not that I think , based on the very little I know of him that this Pastor Bill is necessarily such a man. But when he calls out certain ethnicities for simply existing, condemns my church for not being Christian despite tons of evidence to the contrary, and puts blame for the darkness of the world on "minor league" issues as it were, I find myself wondering.
Your niceness would have a bit more weight to it if you weren't claiming all
that in the name of one of the most racist, sexist, homophobic and generally
prejudiced religions in America today. But, that's probably asking too much. I
mean, you've got to spend your life trying to become, and I quote, white and
delightsome. How could we possibly expect you to have time to dig deeper into
your patently stupid religion?
I think that the underlying message(s) that religion is trying to teach has
gotten lost in the rhetoric of trying to prove/convince the world why your
religion is better than mine... the Christian extremists are just as guilty of
this as the Islamic and Sikh and Jewish extremists are... there are things that
the Christian radicals do that make me ashamed to call myself a Christian,
just as I know that the jihadists piss off my more moderate/liberal Muslim
friends with all of that terrorism shit.
I am of the belief that the world's religions all hinge on the same basic
principles and that no one religion is better than the rest. I am confident
enough in my personal beliefs to be accepting of others without feeling the
need to try to persuade anyone to my way of thinking.
If we could all find a way to achieve peaceful coexistence and focus on the
real "ills" of the world (the things BG touched on), then I think that we would
be that much better off as a species than we are at this point in time.
It's why I classify myself as more of a spiritualist than an adherent to any one religion. Atheism for me is just too stark because in my opinion it still fails to answer the big question of why. And there are so many whys within whys that if I let it, I know it would bug the shit out of me. It's what I call the what's-it-all-about-Alphie syndrome. The mainstream religions, or rather the fundamentalist offshoots of the mainstream religions, simply can't prove to me they hold any more of a monopoly on the truth than atheists can, and listening to people shouting at one another only gives me a headache, and I already like drugs too much for that. But I've concluded that if there is an answer, and there may be, it's not for us scrawny, puny humans to know what it is at this point in our evolution. I will say that I've never seen the original poster write so well as when he's cutting and pasting other people's words into his posts. Good job! Keep it up. You'll go far.
VERY SIMPLE QUESTION (if I happen to think of MORE questions, so BE it): how is it ACTUALLY CERTAIN that one's claim to be a "CHRISTIAN," WITHOUT recognizably accepting that the BIBLE is the ONLY %100-PLUS-ACCURATE, ABSOLUTELY INERRENT WORD of GOD, is OFFICIALLY TRUE? WHAT OTHER BOOK can EVER ACCURATELY (with ABSOLUTELY NO FLAWS, WHATSOEVER) PREDICT the VERY END from the VERY BEGINNING? Is it ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that one's a "CHRISTIAN," who holds to ABSOLUTELY ANTI-CHRIST VIEWS, convincing oneself of them to be THEIR OWN "PERSONAL TRUTH," as opposed to the ONE and ONLY ABSOLUTE, ETERNAL TRUTH (GOD'S WORD), that'll SUPPOSEDLY SUSTAIN them? Is one an ABSOLUTELY SOLID CHRISTIAN who believes that there's ABSOLUTELY NO "ONE ROAD, ONLY" to HEAVEN, as there are SUPPOSEDLY COUNTLESS "MANY ROADS," instead? EXAMPLE: LDS MORMONISM teaches that JESUS is SUPPOSEDLY the BROTHER of LUCIFER, amongst COUNTLESS OTHER ABSOLUTELY IRRONEOUS OTHER claims, and ANOTHER is that AFTER DEATH, depending on one's WHATEVER DEGREE of ACHIEVEMENT here on EARTH, if I'm not mistaken, that one "INHERITS their OWN PLANET, and the MEN would have sex with as MANY WOMEN as they'd choose, thus fathering "SPIRIT BABIES (LOL-LOL-LOL-LOL-LOL!). YET, believing such, according to THIS DOCTRINE, actually makes one a "CHRISTIAN." How?
OP, turn your caps lock off, you pubic nugget.
@Westcoastcdngrl: There are plenty in secular humanist organizations who could easily work together with your kind, even if we don't believe there is a god or gods.
@Johndy: Here is my answer to the question why, and admittedly it's based on secular humanism as a moral philosophy, not rational atheism as an intellectual position: You are the answer to that question why. For yourself, and in part, for other people who you have influenced over the years. You have so many beautifully emergent properties as a human being. You have the ability, perhaps as a secondary adaptive characteristic and perhaps not, of being able to ask the question why, and to help answer that question why. You are what gives the universe meaning. What good is beauty if there's nobody to look at it? Except you are there looking at it, contemplating it, creating it. The same goes for everything we hold dear.
We ourselves are what we are.
I know that's not a good enough answer for many. But rational atheism as an intellectual position only exists because there is theism. however, secular humanism as a moral and philosophical position, to honor and protect all that makes us human, that would continue to exist if there were no more religions, and atheism as an intellectual position became ubiquitous and meaningless. There is a lot of crossover between theists and nontheists of this variety. I'm not trying to tell anyone how to think, only to explain how rational atheism never tries to deal with the philosophical and the moral: secular humanism does. And there are apparently a lot of nonsecular humanists, people of various faiths who celebrate the emergent properties that make us human, may have some different names for some things, but are usually not hard-line theists.
This is some of my problem with some of the hard-line anti-theistic types. I agree intellectually with many of the claims, including of people like Richard Dawkins, as it relates to god(s) and natural forces. However, as a secular humanist myself, I can't really get on board with what looks sometimes like the really clangy fundamentalist stuff. If I were trying to be a Christian instead of being my atheist self, they would call my way "double-minded." At least those of the Evangelical stripes would do so.
But anyway, for Johndy and others, this is at least my assessment, after reading several different humanist authors. We are why. You are why. And what, and how, for our existence. Without a heaven and a hell, a Vishnu and a Karma, we are. If I want justice for the rape victim, it falls to me to do the honorable thing and do my part in society, not wait for the god(s) to hopefully vindicate her, or more often make up excuses for her suffering. If I want fidelity, it falls to me to uphold fidelity in my home, and pledge to commit no treachery against Her ever. For me personally, this is an exhilarating way to live: I embrace it all, with old-world, pre-Christian, very Eurocentric concepts of personal honor. Embrace it all with head up, and not down. Not as a pale broken unworthy thing to be spanked and broken repeatedly or made a vessel for common use, or pottery statistically likely to be shattered over and over and over again. No, not that. As a man, as a human, head up, shoulders back, facing into the wind, striving to make the world a better place around me. It was heartbreaking to me, among the evangleicals with my family, how theirs is a world where they resented efforts set forth to make the world a better place. The fire gods perhaps need instability in order to self-maintain.
But as a humanist I do not. Rather than look to a utopia, I do the best I can, and that best is in fact good enough. If and when it's not good enough, that means there is a tangible way in which I can make that better. No apologetics for AWOL deities, no waiting on alleged future events or supposed divine interventions.
Though, Johndy, you say yu are spiritual. There are actually a lot of spiritual secularists who do meditate and other things, who seem attracted, and seem to be capable of belief in higher forces, if not always anthropomorphic entities. The ones I have met in recent months have all still held to total secular humanistic tendencies though. I think that us, as the answer why, and us, as the answer how, is not so depressing as some make it out. People mistake the intellectual position of rational atheism or other atheisms for the philosophical and moral position of secular humanism. On atheist topics, gods must necessarily play a factor, because atheists intellectually are defined as non-participants in the theisms. But among secular humanist topics, you will not find any of this, because it's a philosophy and moral position. I've met theists in the circles of secular humanists I've run itno: people who follow gods or goddesses but they don't see them as almighty. Admittedly, I don't fully understand. But it's never at issue when dealing with things from the moral standpoint of a secular humanist.
Hopefully this explains some of it, on a basic sense, from my standpoint. And since it's about a moral framework and philosophy, of course my own personal bias is laced throughout. But there's plenty of secular humanist writings available, as well as podcasts from secular humanist organizatins. I think relying on strict rational atheism would be a cold and bleak way to live, because rational atheism is nothing but an intellectual position, and doesn't address any of the normal, emergent, human moral concerns that our complicated, highly evolved brains, are always dealing with.
If all religions hinge on the same basic ideals, and they're all equal, why be a
christian? Why not just be a person? If christian is no better than muslim, which
is no better than jewdaism, which is no better than mormonism, which is no
better than pastafarianism, which is no better than voodoo, which is no better
than all the other thousands of religions, then why be a specific type of religion?
By saying this, you've completely invalidated your entire belief system, because
you've completely destroyed anything that set it apart from all other belief
systems. In effect, you've claimed to believe nothing because everything is
equal. If everything is equal, everything is meaningless.
Or, everything is not equal: No two intellectual positions can be simultaneously right. I think, though I can't say for sure for these people, that they aren't approaching this rationally from the standpoint of inquiry, but they are approaching this humanistically. My mother-in-law is a Methodist. We don't discuss religion really, but from what she does say, when they talk like everyone is equal, they are really being humanists. Everyone is equally human. By valid, they mean valid as human beings. I can't speak for her directly of course. There are several in the secular humanist community who talk about this stuff: generally people of the more so-called liberal persuasions of religions are often seeing their versions of the god as archetypes. For nontheists like you and I, those gods don't exist. And for Americans raised around evangelicalism, we're used to people who see gods as anthropomorphic, real beings, who lose their temper, get cranky, throw fits and lightning bolts, and occasionally provide a very narrow way to sacrifice themselves to themselves to save us from themselves. But your more so-called liberal versions of these religions don't process things that way. It makes the evangelicals all hot and bothered, sure. They get downright cranky and bratty about it at times. But I don't think it's fair of us to use the same types of arguments against the more liberal of the religious.
This past weekend, I was at an atheist meetup I go to semi-regularly. We were discussing various people groups that are outside the mainstream evangelical narrative, in particular a feminist group of goddess worshippers. What's interesting is that for them, they don't claim their goddesses to be omnipotent, omniscient, or omnipresent. Well some of them omnipresent I guess, in the animist sense. But anyway, it would make no sense to argue the problem of evil with them, because their deity framework doesn't demand this intellectual rigor. We can't argue a claim they haven't first claimed, in other words. So we can't with any intellectual honesty ask: "Why doesn't the goddess of rape interfere on behalf of the rape victim?" Because they have no such expectation. They do pray to their goddesses, have rituals, and they do experience what you and I know to be the effects of dopamine and oxytocin. But since they don't make the same claims as the Pentecostal Christians do about outcomes, it's intellectually dishonest and patently unfair for us to argue those arguments against them. It's a bit like asking us secular humanist why we are so hedonistic: not relevant. You have to ask a hedonist that question.
I admit fully, being raised around the Bible and the Wall Street Journal and Reaganomics and fear of communism, one nation under god in fear of nuclear war, that I don't pretend to understand liberal Christianity. But one thing is clear: They're not evangelical, don't seem to have the same expectations or rigors of orthodoxy, or even perhaps the same expectations. Some may do it for cultural reasons and nothing else.
Why be a movement without orthodoxy? I don't know. But the phrase "A few good men" has always come to mind when contemplating the ingroup-selection tendencies of the explicitly orthodox. The Pentecostals require a narrative where there are only a "few good", the rest are shaken out. Orthodoxy of thought is how you get there.
So, not to speak for liberal Christians, but, for sake of thought experiment: What if ingroup / outgroup wasn't that important to a particular brand of liberal Christianity or liberal Judaism. What if it's mainly cultural? You and I know it's mainly cultural, after all: people are statistically likely to adopt the religion of their parents, or, if they stray, to adopt a religion that closely resembles that of their parents. Even Dawkins, who is intensely illiterate on the topic of cultural anthropology, acknowledges this. What if some theists acknowledge it too?
I think, if we ask them what they actually do believe, rather than start with the dominant narrative of our formative years, we could get meaningful outcomes. Last Sunday, you didn't see a pack of atheists suddenly turn goddess-worshippers. Even the woman who graciously obliged and educated the rest of us is an atheist, who goes to their ritual things. They simply don't put a premium on belief the way the Evangelical Christians do. So it would make no sense to have an argument about belief and orthodoxy with them, because that's not part of their cultural narrative, what they may call their spiritualism.
I'll say this much: We who were raised around Evangelicalism, are largely ignorant of how other theistic groups even conceptualize their cultural narrative, what their mythology even means to them. Then we run up against walls and appear arrogant and ignorant at the same time, because we're arguing stuff they don't even participate in, functionally creating in-groups where there perhaps aren't any, or imagining orthodoxy where it doesn't exist. I'm guilty as hell personally. It was obvious to me by the questions I asked last Sunday, and I wasn't even confrontational, and she wasn't even defending. The framework just might be radically different from anything remotely resembling Jerry Fallwell's Moral Majority, the political action committees for the Christian coalition, or TBN. They may not even want domination, or hell, maybe not even converts!
There's a famous saying by a recent Rabbi, something like, "I would rather help someone become a better person, than to help them become a Jew."
Clearly, we nontheistic types get it wrong, especially those of us raised in a strict, narrow, evangelical, fearful, Orwellian atmosphere. Clearly not all theistic systems resemble this, and don't even hold the same ideas as premium: belief, conformity, dependence, orthodoxy. People like Richard Dawkins, or Christopher Hitchens (were he still alive) would look like ignorant arrogant fools trying to debate a Wiccan, or a pagan, for instance. Certainly dumb as a box of rocks when debating some of these feminist goddess worshippers, who don't even have to contend with the Christian trifold problem of evil, the moral / amoral paradoxes of deity, or even intelligent design. that stuff isn't even part of their narrative.
Apologies for the soap box here, but I think it's relevant. Someone like Westcoastcdngrl Kate comes on, puts forth a defense or basic explanation of her variant of faith, and the rest of us may not even have ever read or seriously looked at its machinations. We can't assume, as Dawkins typically does, the Evangelical narrative, where that narrative frankly doesn't exist.
But none of that matters if everything is equal Leo. It doesn't matter if you're
a christmas and easter christian, or a dyed in the wool bible beater, if all
religions are equal, as was stated, then all differentiations between them are
meaningless. Thus, all details which give them, no matter how strictly you
follow them, their individuality are made nonexistent.
To give an illustration, its as if you set out three identical glasses of apple
juice and told your daughter to pick her favorite. Her choice is meaningless,
because the glasses are identical. She can't have any reason for one being her
favorite over any other. They're identical. Any reason she gave for one being
her favorite would, by its very nature, make them not identical anymore. Even if
she said, "This one is my favorite because its closer", is giving that glass a
detail the others don't have. Thus, they're not identical anymore.
So, by saying that all religions are equal, saying that she's a christian, which
she did, is absolutely meaningless. Christian no longer means anything. If it did,
it would, by its very nature, mean that all religions are not equal.
Which, for the record, we all know is the case. No matter how much people
pretend to cling to this new age hippie kind of christianity, when it comes right
down to it they aren't any different than the bible thumpers. They still think
christianity is the right way to go. They just have really stupid reasons for
claiming that.
Terrence, you are a prime example of the fallacy born of half truths and embellishments I was talking about. That
you believe this so derisively about the LDS church tells me you don't have an understanding of who and what we are,
or what we believe. And why should you? if you believe as you do, then we are not Christians, and therefore our
beliefs are none of your concern.
perhaps I can clear a couple things up, briefly, as I do not wish for this to turn into a pointless "whose is
bigger" topic.
First, we believe the bible to be the word of god, so far as it is translated correctly. Tell me, how can the bible
be the 100% undeniable word of God in every translation, when in many instances, the meaning of the words written
differ. Case in point, the book of Exodus. God, when speaking of Phaero going back on his word to let the Israelites
go says "And I will harden Phaero's heart." But another translation will say "And Phaero will harden his heart." See
the difference? It's only one example. So yes, the Bible is the word of God, the word of God written and recorded by
men, and then translated into a great many iterations over countless centuries for many peoples and purposes. We
follow the Bible, yes. We read it, we abide by it and we also study it, in context hopefully). But yes, we do have
"other scriptures". Scriptures which exist hand-in-hand with the bible as another testament of Jesus Christ. We also
have a living prophet. His name is Thomas S Monson, and I challenge you to read anything he has written, or listen
to any talk he has given and tell me we are not Christian. Is it so far-fetched that prophets could still be on the earth today? Why should they who were so prevolent throughout the old testament suddenly cease to be after the 12 apostles.....and paul ... Should the word of God stop. People of the bible's time had his word for their day. Why should we be left to ponder only those words which, though they have practical applications today, were written for a vastly different people in a much different time? As for "other scripture", if you have ever red it, truly
red it, one thing you will learn, especially in 3rd Nephi is that it features an overwhelming amount of content
about the coming of Christ, and his ministry, resurrection and second coming as well as his relationship to the
father, and yes, to Satan. And the vast majority of that is also in the Holy Bible. The additional scriptures do not
replace the bible. They merely enhance and clarify it. Upon his resurrection after the crusifiction, we believe
Christ, upon visiting Mary and his apostles departed to minister unto other nations. This is supported in the bible
where he says "many sheep I have which are not of this fold. Them also must I visit..." Why should only one people
hear his word?
As for Jesus being the brother of Lucifer? Both Jesus (Jahova) and Satan (Lucifer) were beloved sons of God, just as
we are sons and daughters of God. Christ is also our brother in that respect. But he is also the greatest among us,
the one without sin, and the only begotten son of the father in the flesh. Under the father's direction he made the
worlds without number. There is some speculation as to what that means, though when you look at the vastness of
space it's not hard to believe there are other worlds than this. Anyway In the sense that we are all sons and
daughters of the father, yes, Jesus is the brother of Satan, Lucifer, who was once beautiful and blesed, a favored
son of the father. But then he fell, and that story is also in the bible.
As for the path to heaven. No one comes unto the father except through Christ. Jesus has taken upon him the sins of
an entire world, and in the garden of Gethsemane. And his crusifiction paid the ultimate price for those sins so we
did not have to. God can not look upon sin with the least degree of allowance, and since we are all sinners to one
degree or another, nothing we can do will make us good enough to enter his presence. Only Jesus walked in mortality without sin, though he was tempted many, many times by Lucifer. Through Jesus, that price is paid, and all we need to do is believe in him, and be baptized in his name. That said, we must also abide by his commandments. "If ye love me, keep my commandments." And when we fall short, we must repent, sincerely. "Go thy way and sin no more." We must strive to become perfect, but that perfection is a long, transcendant road. But one road only. All who believe in him will have everlasting life, yes. But depending on our faithfulness, and our willingness to repent and to better ourselves, that will help determine which degree of glory (of three) we will achieve. "My father's house hath many mansions (kingdoms). I will prepare a place for you." (I'm paraphrasing that one). There's so much more to this than can be comfortably contained within this post, but all of it will come about after the milleneum of Christ's reign on earth has passed, and we are all made to stand at the judgement bar of god to account for our lives, where we are held accountable for our actions. There is a state between our death and the resurrection, and that is the heaven and hell of the bible. A place of rest and peace for some, a place of reflection, teaching and torment brought upon us by a perfect knowledge of our sins and deeds for others. Everything in our existence is a matter of eternal progress. And what I've always been concernned about is how much of Christianity has no answer about what comes beyond this life. Be in God's presence or burn forever in a lake of fire. But what does that mean? What would be the purpose if we were to simply suffer for eternity, or worship for eternity. Surely there must be more to it. And that is one reason I believe so mightily in this church, because it teaches that we are a constant progression. This mortal part is just a step in that progression.
If you want clarification about anything I have said, Terrence, ask, or better yet, research, read the scriptures. The bible in which the degrees of Glory are discussed, The Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of great price if you care to do so. Or look up these concepts in the Bible Dictionary on our website. or read some of the talks, even from the last general conference of our church which is right on our front page. or don't. But please do not judge us to be non-Christian without understanding us as much as you can first. I know what Pastor bill teaches, and he does not know us.
By the way, I have one wife, with whom I am sealed for eternity in the temple. One man for one woman. I've discussed polygamy a number of times, and I am running out of time here. Again I ask you to research that if you care to do so. If you do not, let me know and when I have a bit more time I will explain our views on Marriage; one man, one woman.
I can't defend what I'm ignorant of: raised evangelical, and only on again off again dating a few girls into the new age, but never even bothering to look at what they were into.
However, what if they don't rationally assert their belief? What if belief is not a premium for them? So when they say 'equal' they don't mean everybody's apologetics returns the same result. They mean experientially equal, or something? I'm clearly out of my element on this one, since most of my formative time was a sort of intellectualized Christianity, only getting into the experiential kind as an adult for a time, and never really getting what they all got out of it. I've read as much Josh McDowell, C. S. Lewis, and others as you probably have. The 1980s was an era where Christianity was thought to be rationalized to the point some thought faith was nearly obsolete. Clearly serious cognitive dissonance and intellectual dishonesty there, I'll freely, if chagrinedly, admit as much.
It would be most useful to ask her, or pagans or others who think like this: "Equal what?" What kind of equal? Equally culturally relevant to the participants involved? There's enough cultural anthropology out there to support that, and it's not "hippie crap," it's understanding the mechanics of how cultural systems work.
I think we're wrong to pin orthodoxy on those who don't put a premium on it. Sure, to us rationalists, it looks like they're calling a railroad track a brownie button, or something. But we're rationalists, intellectually. I will be honest enough to say, I don't understand her claim well enough to remotely try to refute it. It's clearly not a rationalist claim, nor is it the pseudo-rationalist claims you and I are used to from the Evangelical apologists. We would fully have to understand the material before debating it. Clearly they don't mean equal like we do. They can't: They don't think Isis chopping heads off are equaly valid as my mother-in-law's Methodist church replete with nice music, a lot of liturgical back and forth, and some pretty candles at Christmas time. In fact, have you ever seen a liberal Christian apologist? Or a new age apologist? Or any of that? I've never seen one.
The best I can guess, having limited experience with these, is their "equal" is a humanist equal: equally valid in their humanity. My guess, and maybe I'm wrong, they don't examine each other's claims. Maybe I'm wrong, but perhaps it's completely out of our element. I don't mean some mystical bippety boppety boo: I mean, it makes no rational sense to apply rationalism to something where the foundation might have few or no rational claims. But if they're humanist enough to safeguard that which is human, to celebrate our emergent properties, and uphold the dignity of fellow humans, I'm not going to complain. That isn't a hippie flower fest: it's common interest from divergent groups.
Go to www.deckerreport.com, check out the podcasts and articles of an X-MORMAN, who CLEARLY and ACCURATELY gives a COMPLETELY UNCENSORED ACCOUNT of the LDS MORMAN temple. MEANWHILE:
From www.liveprayer.com: "Date: 11/28/08 - 2157 days ago.
Category: MORMONISM
Mormons are not Christians
(Galatians 1:6-12)
Mormons are not Christians! Sadly, money and power has become the god of many major Christian leaders. Years ago, I was shocked and appalled when doing research on Rev. Moon's Unification cult, I discovered he cleverly had set up numerous pro-family, socially conservative organizations, and through those organizations funneled millions of dollars to most every major Christian leader of the day to buy himself mainstream credibility.
I was once again shaken out of my naive state in 2007 when I watched major Christian leaders endorsing known satanic cult member Mitt Romney for President, trading in their faith for whatever short term money and power they received for backing him. So I should not be shocked when I saw this past Tuesday, Pat Robertson personally interviewing national radio and TV host Glenn Beck as Beck made the rounds selling his new book that deals with "faith."
What is disgusting is that Glenn Beck is part of the MORMON CULT!!! He sat there and talked about his "faith," his "Lord," his "baptism," and never once did Robertson challenge him that Mormonism is totally inconsistent with Biblical Christianity. Of course Beck has a very popular national radio program where he shares his conservative beliefs. For several years he was the conservative voice on CNN, and has now moved his TV program to the FOX News Network.
FOX News Sean Hannity, makes sure he often lets people know he is a Christian and had some minor theological training in a Catholic seminary, ignorantly calls Beck a "brother in the Lord." I chalk that up to Hannity's theological ignorance. But Pat Robertson? It is no wonder why most Christians have been conned into thinking Mormons are Christians. The Mormon cult spends millions each year on public relations to give that misleading impression. Plus, you have those in the Mormon cult who make that false claim. Worse of all, you have major Christian leaders like Robertson and Dobson giving this cult mainstream credibility!!!
Beck, like all members of his satanic cult, is a LIAR! He talks on the air about his belief in God, Jesus, and the Bible, and that he is just like any other Christian. He has calculated that the theologically ignorant masses will simply assume that he is talking about the God and Jesus of the Bible and that when he speaks of the Bible, he views it as his final authority in all matters.
Here are just a few of the theological issues that makes the satanic Mormon cult totally inconsistent with Biblical Christianity and why a Mormon is no more a Christian than a Muslim is. These are the things the lying Mr. Beck won't tell you, so I will. The god of the Mormon cult is NOT the God of the Bible. Their "god" is named Elohim and was once a man like you and I who came from another planet. Mormon theology teaches that men can eventually become a god and have their own planet. Beck, as a member of this cult, believes that he too will one day become a god. When he talks about "god," he is talking about this fictitious god of Mormonism and NOT the God of the Bible!
This holds true for Jesus. The jesus of Mormon theology is not God incarnate as the Bible teaches. The Mormon jesus was not supernaturally conceived by the Holy Ghost, but the natural offspring of their "god" Elohim who had sex with Mary, meaning he is a created being no different than you and I. Mormons also teach that their jesus had several wives and children, again, in compete contradiction to what the Bible teaches. The jesus of Beck and the Mormon cult is also the brother of Lucifer and will return not to the Mt. Of Olives as the Bible teaches, but to Independence, Missouri to set up his earthly Kingdom. When Beck talks about "jesus," he is NOT talking about the true Jesus of the Bible!
*What Jesus you put your faith in is so critical, since this is why anyone who puts their faith in the imaginary jesus of Joseph Smith and the satanic Mormon cult will die in their sins and their souls burn forever in the flames of hell!
What about the Bible and true Christian churches? Mormons love to use the Bible and quote from the Bible to support their deception that they are Christians. The trademark of all cults and false religions, even those who use the Bible, is that it is NOT their final authority. In the Mormon cult, their authority does not come from the Bible which they view as incomplete and not reliable, but the writings of Smith, the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price, and the Doctrine and Covenants. These are the writings that form the false theology of this cult.
Beck and all Mormons believe that non-Mormons are "abominations." While they don't have the guts the Muslims do to publicly call a non-Muslim an infidel who should be put to death, a Mormon views a Biblical Christian as part of a "false religion" and void of all authority. Glenn Beck believes a Bible-believing Christian, the very people he is courting so hard, are an abomination!
Like in all cults, the average member hasn't got a clue what their cult really believes. You only get to know everything after you have proven yourself to be a loyal and worthy member of the cult. That is true in the Mormon cult as well. Most Mormons go to their "church," sing many of the same hymns they sing at the Baptist church down the road, give their tithe, read a few passages out of the Bible, hear a message about being a "good person," and go home. It is only when you get to become a "temple Mormon" that you really learn all of the deep, dark, beliefs of Mormonism.
The Mormon temple rituals are actually little more than the temple rituals Smith copied from another cult, Freemasonry! Smith who was involved in the Masonic cult, simply copied and incorporated their chants, handshakes, and ceremonies when he started the Mormon cult. These are the same chants, handshakes, and ceremonies Mitt Romney participated in when he took his oath to the Mormon cult above anything else, INCLUDING THE U.S. GOVERNMENT AND CONSTITUTION!
The average person has no idea that the ultimate goal of the Mormon cult is to establish a theocracy here in the United States. Joseph Smith, the cult's founder actually ran for the Presidency. So did Mitt Romney's father. This cult has the very real goal of establishing the "Kingdom of God," which means advancing the physical and earthly organization of the multi-billion dollar Mormon cult.
There is a special room in the Mormon Temple located in Washington, DC that has been prepared and in place for over 30 years, which will be the seat of power for the Mormon-led government which will supplant our current government. This was the vision Smith laid out less than 200 years ago, and Mitt Romney and those in the hierarchy and leadership of the Mormon cult see this as the time for that vision to become fulfilled!
I love you and care about you so much. Sadly, because those who people view as leaders like Robertson give Beck a forum to spew his lies without challenging him, only reinforces the Mormon deception that they are Christians. I have done my best in a limited amount of time to give you a brief overview of the false and satanic beliefs of the Mormon cult.. I have just barely scratched the surface, but just in what I have shared with you today, NOBODY in their right mind could ever believe that a Mormon is a Christian.
When you study Mormon theology and understand the wild beliefs of Smith and this cult, you need faith greater than I will ever hope to have to believe what they do. There is no logic to it and there is absolutely nothing they believe that has any basis in realty or can be proven. The mythical gold tablets Smith said he found . Men who become gods and have their own planet where they have many wives and create "spirit babies." It all makes Star Trek look believable!
The Mormon cult shares some of the same scientific fantasies of the Scientology cult dreamed up by that science fiction writer L. Ron Hubbard. It also has some elements of the false religion of Islam in that they believe all non-Mormons are an abomination and they will one day rule the earth. As I shared earlier, they have also taken some of the dark, satanic rituals of the Masonic cult and incorporated them into their temple ceremonies.
Listen, Glenn Beck and those in this cult can believe whatever they want. God gave us free will, and men who live in rebellion to God since the very beginning have dreamed up the wildest and most ridiculous things, and sadly people who were spiritually void chose to believe their lies and will be lost for all eternity because of it. My main point is that they be honest and truthful about what they believe. The danger of Mormonism is that they are deceptive (just look at their name, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) and will lie without conscience just like the father of lies, satan (John 8:44), to get people to join their cult, leading their eternal souls to hell.
In His love and service, Your friend and brother in Christ, Bill Keller"
Ooh, BG, I have a question about mormonism. Why is it that a tribe of Jews
from bronze age Israel came to north america, had several battles with native
americans, and were even armed with iron swords, and yet left absolutely no
archeological evidence of their existence? Oh, and why is it that your church
only goes back on its racist or homophobic or polyamorous teachings when its
politically convenient, like in 1978 to name but one example. And why is it a
teaching from the book of mormon that the native americans were cursed,
along with black people by some interpretations, and that the measure of
goodness is to become, and again I quote, "white and delightsome"? Oh, and
why is it that more than fifty percent of homeless people in the Mormon bastion
of Utah are homosexuals who have been exiled from their mormon houses? and
why is it that mormonism, for all its loving qualities, has one of the highest
incidents of suicide out of all the religions, and its pet university, that would be
Brigham Young University, has some of the highest crime rates in the nation for
universities, and also one of the highest suicide rates? Why is it that it also
boasts one of the highest rates of sexual assault on women? Oh, and this one is
just for personal curiosity, how the hell can you believe that a convicted con
man in the 1830's was visited by an angel, found some gold plates in a
language that doesn't even exist as he claimed it does, then found some magic
rocks to help him read the language that doesn't exist and never existed, and
then dictated a book which Mark Twain called "literary chlorophorm" by reading
the plates out of his hat to his neighbor, while failing all tests of accuracy in
translating them again after some text was lost or destroyed? I seriously don't
understand how you suspend your disbelief long enough to accept that. I
wouldn't accept that premiss if it were in the lord of the rings movie, how can
you possibly believe it happened in New York?
OH--let me add THIS:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL915FB9AD65E9C989
And is it just a coincidence that "Moroni" is one letter shy of moronic? I think not. Haw haw haw!
TL:DR
Wow, Terrence, with condemnation like Keller's how could you ever possibly believe anything else. The problem here is Keller is painting everything in such a shaudy, negative light, full of only half truths that it's hard for me personally to take him seriously as a preacher without
a personal agenda. I don't know if he gets paid to write for his church, I don't know enough about him. But He sourced nothing, quoted nothing and gave few examples of any substance. It's not that there isn't a grain of truth in what he says, but it
is a grain which he twists, distorts and puts a negative spin on so dramatically that it is spoiled. I've seen this in other writing of his you've posted too, condemning, using half-truths to make it seem appealing at first glance. His words are so full of condemnation it's a wonder he has any room left for love. In the case of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, I am afraid he is grossly mis-informed. Still, I can see how people who don't do their own research might be willing to believe it.
But enough of that. You asked me questions, and are so excited about proving me wrong, both of you. I want to discuss all these points keller made, and I want
to answer your questions, Cody, but the disdain and contempt I read in your words makes the task seem daunting and not worth any of our time. I said before I'm not here to debate, or convert you - any of you. yes I know you wouldn't have asked if you didn't want to know. But I feel, Cody, based on all our other conversations, and the way you pick apart everything that you aren't really interested in what I have to say. You have made your disdain for religion in general abundantly apparent, and it is understandable, given your feelings, and the very questions you've asked that you might disdain my church more than some others. After all, when you put it the way you did, it does sound a little silly, doesn't it? I mean an illiterate farm boy seeing a vision of God and Jesus, finding golden plates, using stones with a hat to translate when he could barely write? Really? I remember after watching that episode on Mormons on South Park, I was like "what? They ... really believe that? I am willing to take the time to address Cody's questions, the points made here in this "article" and on the first video Terrence posted, since if people truely believe some of this, the church has a lot of work to do. We do have money, but we make what we do with that money very public, both literally, and in our deeds. We are as a whole very public, except for our temple seremonies which are not secret, but sacred. heck, there's even a recent release demistifying the temple garments, the "holy underwear" as some love to call them. I have been to the temple. I have seen what goes on there. I can't tell you what does, because it is not for me to do. Only you can experience it for yourself. We don't keep out people who are worthy to enter, and we don't keep anyone out from wandering the grounds, and looking around inside before the temple is dedicated to God. All this said, I will be happy to watch that first interview and let you know if it's Legitimate. We are so open about our beliefs because we want to dispel a lot of the misconceptions about our church. I applaud the hard questions. I myself asked hard questions before joining the church. I will do my best to answer, but I will only do so if there is jenuine curiosity. Both of you have very pre-conceived oppinions, and it is quite clear you've gathered a lot of info from third-party sources. Cody, given your seemlingly vast studies on religion and your demonstrated intelligence I can only assume you've actually "done" some research on this stuff. But while outside sources are important when doing research, you need to look to the source also. You don't learn the truth about biology by watching a medical drama, you study journals, documents and manuals written by doctors who "get their hands dirty". So, I ask you, in addition to whatever you're reading, perhaps have a little look at what "we" actually believe, and what we tell others we believe. I know it's a bit bias, but it is also what we actually believe, and practice. Start with Mormon.org perhaps, because it has a nice FAQ section. But please don't ONLY look to the disallusioned and the anti-LDS literature, because they can be just as bias. You'll find there are vast differences. And of course that then begs the question, are the Mormons telling the truth, or is the anti-literature sound fact? So now tell me, Cody, Terrence, anyone else, should I attempt to explain? Should I find sources to answer your questions, and will you take the time to read, put aside your pre-conceived notions for a small time and here me out? yes, I will quote and I will link to articles, talks, and scripture if I may, in additional to my own words, but I will do so so you may have a greater understanding, not to be lazy.
Just to dispel one truth right off. Terrence, we believe Jesus Christ was the only begottten son of the Father, born of a vergin, Mary, through the power of the Holy Ghost. How this was physically accomplished, I don't think any Christian knows. But God did not physically come down and mate with a human woman, though to be honest I wish it were the case. it would have been easier to wrap my head around.:)
Uh huh. You always say all these things just to cover up the fact that you can't back up moronism with actual evidence.
You are right, Imp. But there isn't a whole lot of physical evidence for 1any religion; you know that. Evidence of God is, though I hate to admit it, subjective, granted to us personally by circumstance, spiritual revelation and study. I've never been an Atheist, but I've been an agnaustic for 22 years. Only within the last eight years have I embraced the LDS church. And I have done so because its teachings speak to me more than have any other religion. I've got a lot of circumstance, a decent amount of personal "ah-hah" revelation and quite a bit of study. But I don't know everything. I don't even know most things. Sadly, I have a memory like swiss cheeze. One of the reasons I find it difficult to stand up to people like Cody are because much of what I learn does not always linger long. The feelings do; answering a difficult question posed to me always pleases me, but that answer is fleeting. I spend a great deal of time, more than I should perhaps finding answers to difficult questions about my faith. Often, I find them, and often they reenforce my faith. But just as often the particulars drift from memory, like ash blown on the wind. I recall finding the answer, and I recall being satisfied with that answer, but often it ends there. It's one reason I am so short-coming with hard facts, though that is something pretty usual around here. A lot of us sound like we know what we're talking about, but we don't always back it up with facts either. So, All I can do is discuss what I believe, and what my church believes. I'm not interested in discussing if it is true or not. But questions about some core doctrine were raised, and I think it important to stand up for my beliefs against they who would look down on them with sneers, bitter words and joking thinly vailed under a veneer of condescention.
And Terrence, I have a question for you. Not for bill keller, but for "YOU". I am a Christian. I believe in Jesus Christ, that he died for me, and took my sins upon his shoulders, and that believing on his name, I will gain eternal life. I believe in striving to love others, to do good to others, even those who spite me, and I believe in repenting for my transgressions and making restitution when I have done wrong. I believe in the ten commandments, and though I'm not always a "good Christian", I try to live them. I read some of the articles on that site, and I have read your bill Keller articles, and one thing I have to ask is, why does it matter to these people? Why does it matter to you? Why is it important to you that you share anti LDS messages? So you prove me wrong? Then what? All the 3 degrees of Glory stuff aside, even if it's all as simple as "you die and go to Heaven where you dwell with God (whatever that inevitably ends up meaning), the worst that will happen is we "Mormons" will get it wrong. We'll still be faithful followers of Jesus Christ. We are all Christians, and, despite how some of us treat others and do some bad things, we should be equal in that, for we are all equal in his eyes. We "Mormons" do not in fact think that all who are not of our church are "heathens". We believe all will be brought to a knowledge of the truth upon entering the spiritual state (heaven or hell) upon mortal death. Jesus Christ is Lord, regardless of what Christian church you follow. That is our common ground. We merely believe we have slightly more knowledge about the time before mortality, and what comes after. And either we are right, in which case any Christian not of our faith who has accepted Jesus will not be punished for their ignorance, or we are wrong, and we all end up going to Heaven or Hell and none of our efforts as Latter-Day Saints will amount to much.
BG, it's nice that you're willing to explain your views, but I doubt this time will be any different than the other 50,000 times that you've done so.
it seems that people here would rather argue with you, than actually try to understand your beliefs, or the reasons behind why you believe as you do.
I can agree with Chelsea on this one, to a point.
However, not everyone wants to argue with BG, so perhaps that should be up for consideration before deciding it's not worth posting anymore.
Clearly, we cannot compare all theistic systems to the stark, ascetic, literalist interpretations promoted by the evangelical fundamentalists. So we don't know if they think these are archetypes, or literal events.
Dawkins, in the God Delusion, clearly states that he wants only to debate fundamentalists. That is because he, himself, is a fundamentalist. I think he's right, regarding the secondary adaptive qualities of religion, but he's clearly wrong in his assessment of the adherents. Cultural anthropology has a lot to say on the interplay between ceremonial systems and culture.
We don't have to accept the crimes done in the name of religion, and in fact should not do so. By definition, only the religions that can refrain from such activities would continue to survive into the future.
If the "belief" gene, or probably phenotype, hypothesis, turns out to be correct, we atheists will have to accept theists' secondary adaptive mutation -- belief in deities -- in the same way we accept homosexuals and others. But, again, that doesn't mean we have to accept acting out of those beliefs *against* homosexuals, by people who may be 'born this way' toward belief. It's still a rough hypothesis and like all gene / phenotype situations there's likely to be a whole host of factors involved.
But there is certainly secondary data, which may become evicence, to this situation. In largely atheistic countries, you still find whole hosts of people given to mystic mythologies, what is called 'spirituality' as opposed to orthodox religion. Startling to us rational atheists of the U.S., some of these are quite susceptible to the pseudo-sciences. There have not been any priests, no fear of burning in hell, no night terrors in childhood, no images of one's friend, who died of AIDS, now being artificially kept alive in Hell for the express purpose of tortures. None of these godfather manipulative tactics at play. And yet, there are people, in some largely atheistic societies, who exhibit these tendencies.
All this to say, we can't exactly argue against every theistic system as though it was American Fundamentalist Christianity with George W. Bush as Supreme Vicar and Ronald Wilson Reagan as Saint.
So, Chelsea, I don't think BG is wrong to post, or to answer questions where possible. Only, the questions should evolve to the person we're talking to. So, it makes no sense, for example, to ask him why Christians believe in eternal hellfire, when he clearly states that his sect does not.
But Chelsea, you're right about one thing: It's how the question gets asked. If I'm asking because I want to know, the other party might well answer. If I'm asking, and it's full of ad hominem attacks on the person, I'm likely not to get a response.
We have a couple problems here now, and you don't just see this with religion: Far too many people think that criticism equal bullying. Then n the other extreme, people think that attacking is always warranted, and don't know the difference between attacking and intelligently, in context, asking relevant (if sometimes tough) questions.
So no, I think BG and others like him who are willing to communicate this stuff, should do so freely. And if an idea is intelligently challenged without ad hominem, and in context, then that is not bullying.
BG, in response to "And Terrence, I have a question for you. Not for bill keller, but for "YOU". I am a Christian. I believe in Jesus Christ, that he died for me, and took my sins upon his shoulders, and that believing on his name, I will gain eternal life. I believe in striving to love others, to do good to others, even those who spite me, and I believe in repenting for my transgressions and making restitution when I have done wrong. I believe in the ten commandments, and though I'm not always a "good Christian", I try to live them. I read some of the articles on that site, and I have read your bill Keller articles, and one thing I have to ask is, why does it matter to these people? Why does it matter to you? Why is it important to you that you share anti LDS messages? So you prove me wrong? Then what?", what DOES the VERY ABSOLUTE FACT that JESUS DID DIE for you on the cross REALLY MEAN to YOU, PERSONALLY? LET'S SEE if you're ACTUALLY ABLE to answer in a COMPLETELY NON-ELABORATE-VOCABULARY/SARCASM-IMPRESSIVE, GENUINELY HONEST FASHION--since MORMONISM, regardless of either THEN or NOW, CERTAINLY ISN'T FOUNDED on the VERY ABSOLUTE TRUTH that the VERY GOD of the ONE and ONLY TRUE BIBLE, which is the ONLY ABSOLUTE SOURCE that's the PERFECT WORD of GOD, TOTALLY FLAWLESS, and that BECAUSE of the VERY FACT that it was TOTALLY MAN'S CHOICE, starting with ADAM and EVE'S FOOLISH CHOICE to TURN the VERY GOD-GIVEN DOMINION over the EARTH, over to SATAN, the VERY ONE that YOU CLAIM that's SUPPOSED to be JESUS'S BROTHER, which opened the door COMPLETELY WIDE to the VERY CURSE of SIN, which DEFINITELY CANNOT be PUNISHED by NO OTHER PENALTY than DEATH, and DEATH, ONLY, followed by a COMPLETELY-INDESCRIBABLE ETERNITY of TORMENT in HELL, which was ONLY SUPPOSED to be CREATED for SATAN (JESUS'S BROTHER, as you so BLASPHEMOUSLY call him), along with ALL of the VERY DEMONS that REBELLED with him, DID send HIS SON to ACTUALLY DIE the VERY DEATH that HE SHOULD'VE NEVER have DIED, since it wasn't HE that sinned, SIMPLY BECAUSE HE CANNOT EVER, in ALL of ETERNITY PAST, PRESENT, OR FUTURE, SIN, what does ALL of THIS, PLUS MORE, REALLY MEAN to YOU, since YOU say that you ARE a CHRISTIAN? By the way, UNLIKE what the ONE and ONLY TRUE WORD of GOD has to say about it, WHAT IS a "GOOD CHRISTIAN?" WHY would JESUS die for YOU, ME, ANY/ALL of the ENTIRE WORLD of the REST of us? Is it ACTUALLY CERTAIN that we can ACTUALLY be "GOOD CHRISTIANS," when in FACT, GOD'S WORD says that there's ABSOLUTELY NO GOOD that DWELLS in us, AT ALL, REGARDLESS of WHATEVER DEEDS that we do, which ONLY BARES the VERY QUALITY of "FILTHY RAGS?"
Answering a question with a question; I see what you did there. You refrained from answering my question. And you challenged me to answer yours in a "COMPLETELY NON-ELABORATE-VOCABULARY/SARCASM-IMPRESSIVE, GENUINELY HONEST FASHION" Kind of ironic when considering the conviluted manner of your question. But very well. For what it is worth, here we go
Who is Jesus to me? To answer that, let me set the scene.
God knows the end from the beginning. Before this world was created, he was there. He created Adam, and, because it is not right for Man to be alone, he created Eve from Adam's rib. They were given only one law, do not eat of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, lest they die. We do not know how long in the Garden of Eden they dwelt. But after a time, Satan came in the guise of a serpant, tempting eve saying "eat, and ye shall not surely die, but instead be ye as God, knowing good from evil." And she did eat, and she knew good from evil. And she knew were she discovered, she would be cast out of the garden and would be alone. So she went to Adam and told her all she had done, and so she would not be alone, Adam ate also. And this fall separated them from God. They were ashamed of their disobedience and they covered their nakedness and hid from God. And they were sent out into the world to till the earth, and labor for their food and clothing. And they were told to be fruitful and multiply to replenish the earth. And this means both seed and plant, and baring children.
Now, God knew this would happen. What is more, it was vital to his plan for us, all his children. And so from the foundation of the world, he prepared a savior. And before the world he councelled with the hosts of heaven asking who will be the one to save his children. And two angels stepped forward, and one was Lucifer, the light barer, the son of the morning. And lucifer said "send me, and I will save these so that not one soul shall be lost, only give me thy honor (which interpreted means thy power, or thy favor.) And Jahova, Jesus Christ stepped forward and said, here am I, send me, and thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever." And God's will was that mankind had the freedom to choose for themselves, and because Lucifer rebelled by wanting to ascend above God, and wanting to take away our freedom, Lucifer and a third of the host of heaven were cast out, and from then on Lucifer became the Devil, even Saten that old serpant, and he would that all mankind should be miserable like he is. Without this fall, none of us would exist. Adam fell that men might be, and men are that they might have joy. Had Adam and Eve not partaken of the fruit, they would have remained in the garden forever, knowing no happiness, no sorrow, no pleasure, no pain, and never changing. And this would have thwarted the plan of salvation. Under the direction of God the father, Jesus Christ created our world. It is my personal beliefe that he did not just blink it into being, but that it was an elaborate and even scientific process, for I do not beleive Science and faith are mutually exclusive.
So now, who is Jesus? Jesus Christ is the savior of Mankind. For god can not look upon sin with the least degree of allowance. And no unclean thing can dwell in his presence. Jesus Christ is a seperate being from his father, God, but they are one in purpose, and in that way they are indistinguishable. To know Jesus Christ is to know his father. and that purpose is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of humanity, to have us all return home to dwel with God and Christ after the final judgement. To that end, Jahova was born into the world under humble circumstances. The Holy Ghost descended upon Mary, and she conceived and bore a son. He lived among us, and from a young age he was about his father (God's) business. He performed miracles, casting out devils (of which we believe to be among the third of the host of heaven who fell, and will never receive the opportunity to obtain mortal bodies. he healed the sick and afflicted, gave sight to the blind, caused the lame to walk, and resurrected a few who were dead. he fed the hungry, transformed water into wine. And he spoke with and held his own against very learned men at a very young age. He lived a life completely without sin, though Satan many times tempted and tried him. He gathered many followers, including his 12 appostles,one of which he knew would betray him. In the Garden of Gethsemane, he took upon his shoulders the weight of all our sins, felt every pain and emotion any of us would feel. I think he did this so at the final judgement he could fully empathize with us and know our hearts and minds, that perfect justice could be done. And on the cross he died for us, he willingly gave up his life to pay for our sins with his atoning blood, bridging the gap that existed between us and god which was caused by the fall. He descended to "hell" as it were, where all the people who had died before his coming were. I do not exactly know what he did there, but I believe he ministered to them. Because would it be fair that all those who died before Christ's coming, would have no choice to learn of him and choose to believe inhim?
Three days after his death, jesus rose again, and, interestingly enough, the first person he showed himself to was Mary Magdelin, a woman, in a time where women weren't held in very high regard. He visited with his apostles for a time, then ascended to "minister to his other sheep which are not of that fold". It is here we believe he visited the American continent, where his coming had been prophecied by people who still had a great knowledge of the scriptures as they existed at that time. Did he visit other peoples after that? I don't think we know. It stands to reason, but we do not know. But Jesus Christ is the only means by which we may gain a remission of our sins. Faith in Christ, repentance for our sins (not atonement, but repentance), Baptism by immersion, as Christ himself was baptized, and being given the gift of the holy ghost, these are essential elements of our salvation. Christ is my own personal savior, and everything I've wittnessed, everything I've studied, and everything I believe testify of his reality.
This is who Jesus Christ is to me, Terrence. Okay, so this was elaborate, but plain enough to make sense I hope. It was not sarcastic, belittling or condescending. And it was genuinely honest.
Now, what is a good Christian? To me, a "good" Christian is one who strives - that word is important - strives to live the teachings of Jesus Christ. Indeed, to live as he lived to the best of our abilities. That means to obey the commandments to the best of our abilities. To speak with long-suffering, to avoid violence, to be loving and kind to all those around him, to be forgiving, to avoid contention, and to avoid unrighteous judgement; not condemning people for who they are, what they believe or what they do. And that most definitely means pitting one's religion against another. We will all sin, every one of us, and we can in no way become spotless before God without Christ. "Christ said "let he who is without sin cast the first stone," And since we are all guilty of one sin or another, we have no right to cast condemnation on others. But we can strive to live in a manner of which, when we stand before him, we can be comfortable with the accountability with which we will be faced. There are many who profess to be Christian, and many still who twist the words of scripture to suit their own ambitions. They draw close to Christ with their lips but are far from him in their hearts. They treat people terribly and they are responsible for the sins of our collective past, the sins that people like Leo and Cody have every rite and reason to condemn us for. But there are many who,in the grand scheme of things, and whether they are Christian or not are delightsome in the sight of God and Christ. Some may not be Christian; some may even be anti-Christian, but they hold to Christian values, and in doing so they are more Christ-like than the most ardent missionary or evangelist spouting condemnation and unrighteous judgment. Jesus said "by their fruits shall ye know them," That is what it means to me to be a good Christian. Works without faith and a belief in Christ will not be enough to return us back to dwell with God. Because nothing we can do will pay for our own multitude of sins. It isn't a matter of balancing good deeds against bad. But Faith without effort, and without keeping his commandments to the best of our abilities, and without sincerely repenting when we do sin, that faith is dead. Otherwise, you and me would dwell with BinLadin, Hitler, and everyone else. Such people may have the opportunity to partake in Christ's sacrifice should they choose to do so, but their actions will most definetly count against them at the last day.
And this is a case where the answers were far more eloquently put than the questions.
I can't speak for Cody, but I beg to differ on one point, at least for myself. I cannot hold modern Christians responsible for the actions of people 500 years ago -- the Crusades -- nor do I think it's right to hold religious people collectively responsible for the actions of a few. I don't believe in original sin, naturally, being and atheist. But that is because I don't believe in any sort of collective responsibility. Responsibility is personal, or else it doesn't mean anything at all.
To my mind, any Christian has the right to rebugg claims made against them, which are things they personally have not done. Every Christian and other religious person has the right to say "I wasn't there, I didn't do that." That isn't a lack of empathy, that is a full understanding of personal responsibility: you weren't there. You didn't "do that".
Now it is true, that many of us argue against systems, and argue the actions of the god(s) are often genocidal and immoral. But that is an argument against a claim, and not a person. I am one of those humanist atheists who will defend the person of the Christian, Muslim or any other religious group, in this context. Collective guilt is collective enslavement, in my opinion. Of far greater benefit are individual persons exercising their individual autonomy with honor and dignity, and thereby being able to take personal responsibility for things in their own life, rather than being saddled with collective guilt.
Anyway, as I said, I personally found your responses eloquent. Far more so than the questions as posed to you.
I agree with everything you've said, leo. I should point out that I (we) do not believe in the concept of original sin either. We believe we will be held accountable for our own sins, not for Adam's transgressions. I'm not sure, based on your words that came across very well. And definitely, the actions of individuals within a body do not equate the actions of that body. I was not responsible for the Spanish inquisition, or any of the other sins of the past. Just as the US government isn't responsible for the actions of those who opporate within in. We are all resonpsible for our actions, whether we're religious, philosophic or whatever else. But many of a habbit of blaming the many for the actions for the few.
Yes many do, and many from my own quarter do this, and I reject it. it's a problem with atheists who are not humanistic in their philosophy.
I may not believe there are gods, but I believe in and defend, the persons of the alleged gods' followers. And you're right, far too many will blame the many for the actions of the few. There's no moral argument for supporting that blame.
Taken from the "CHRISTIAN RESEARCH JOURNAL, entitled CONVERTING THEM SOFTLY WITH THEIR WORDS (www.equip.org): "For many years, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) have practiced what they call “friendshipping.” This coined word describes the attitude that Mormons are told to have in their relationships with less active members or those who have no connection whatsoever to the LDS Church. By going out of their way to do kind gestures, Mormons hope to present a positive image of their church and possibly entice friends and neighbors to enter into the missionary lessons. In addition, many Christians are pressured to join the LDS Church when they become involved in romantic relationships with Mormons. While Mormons apparently can date outside their faith as long as their partners are pure and wholesome, they are not supposed to marry nonmembers. Thus, the Christian boyfriend or girlfriend is typically required to join the LDS Church before the relationship can head to the next step, which could be a Mormon temple wedding ceremony. While Christians certainly can and should have friendships with those from other religions, including Mormons, they also need to understand the potential pitfalls when others are trying to convert them to their faith.
My friend and I backed the rented moving truck into the driveway of our family’s new home in Sandy, Utah, a short drive from the headquarters of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) in Salt Lake City. It was 2:00 A.M. on a Sunday, much too late to begin unloading the twenty-seven-foot, packed-to-the-gills truck. We decided to get some sleep, knowing that some friends were scheduled to come by that afternoon to help.
Sunday is a sacred day for members of the LDS Church; Mormons are not supposed to work or recreate on the “Sabbath.” Since more than two-thirds of Utah’s population is LDS, many stores and restaurants throughout the state are closed on Sunday. Because our friends’ schedules did not allow for them to help later in the week and the truck was due back, we hoped our new Mormon neighbors (which, it turns out, includes almost everyone on the block) would understand why we had to work on Sunday.
That afternoon, as the back door to the truck rolled open and we began the backbreaking process of unloading, my next-door neighbor—sporting jeans and a T-shirt with a pair of work gloves on his hands—appeared from around the corner. “Need a hand?” he asked. I knew that he was a former Mormon bishop who had been very friendly to me during my purchase of the home. “Imagine,” I thought to myself, “this man is willing to forego his day of rest to help me move.” In one way, I was duly impressed. But I wondered if “friendshipping” was his main motivation. Regardless, he was one of the hardest workers of the afternoon, sweating profusely and refusing to take a break.
KIND ACTS AND GETTING A FOOT IN THE DOOR
In the 2005 LDS-genre movie Mobsters and Mormons, a New Jersey “goodfella” and his family are secretly relocated to Utah as part of the Witness Protection Program. The comedy comes as the rough-edged Italian informant—now with the assumed name of George Cheeseman—learns to adapt to the culture that feels to him like Disneyland on steroids. Soon after the Cheesemans move into their home, most of the Mormon families from the neighborhood bend over backwards to welcome the brash newcomers with visits and gifts of baked goods. In addition, it doesn’t take them long to invite this Catholic family to Mormon Church services and activities.
Louise, the local neighborhood gossip, decides she isn’t a fan of these uncouth people, so she warns Kate Jaynes, the wife of the local LDS Church leader, not to be so outgoing to them. “We are setting a standard,” Kate ends up sarcastically responding to her complaining neighbor. “We had the Cheesemans over for dinner. It’s called friendshipping. You know what? You should try it sometime.”
“Friendshipping” is an LDS-coined word that emphasizes the building of relationships with non-Mormon friends and neighbors. It is certainly not a strategy of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, a group that is more likely to knock on our doors, but who will shun their own neighbors and refuse to participate in neighborhood social activities.
According to Sandra Tanner, the founder of the Utah Lighthouse Ministry in Salt Lake City, Mormons have found success through friendshipping. “The LDS Church has long realized that simply going door-to-door is one of the least efficient means of finding potential converts,” she said. “They try to involve the local church member in supplying names of friends and relatives for missionary contact. Often the church member will invite someone over for dinner, along with the LDS missionaries, as a means of introducing the person to Mormonism.”1
Indeed, Mormon leaders encourage their members to go beyond the comfort of their own homes to engage with nonmembers. Many assume that the Mormon Church’s best tactics to entice potential converts are through direct contact with two of the church’s 52,000 missionaries as well as media campaigns. Yet the results of these two methods are less than impressive. Only two to three percent of those who initially became connected to the church through missionary efforts ever get baptized; just one to two percent of those contacted through a media campaign join the LDS Church. However, twenty to thirty percent of those whose first contact came through a relationship with current members end up getting baptized!2
While using friendships to try to make converts is certainly not new or unique to the Mormon Church, the current idea of Mormon friendshipping began in the 1970s when President Spencer W. Kimball encouraged LDS families to reach out to others in an evangelistic way. “With your family, prayerfully select one or two families to friendship,” he said. “Decide whom of your relatives or friends you will introduce to the Church. Perhaps you could plan a family home evening with them….Then, when these families show interest, arrange through your ward or branch mission leader to invite them and the missionaries into your home to share the message of the restoration. If you will follow this simple procedure, you will bring a number of fine families into the Church.”3
One church manual provides a four-step list to “sharing the Gospel effectively”: “1. Prayerfully select a family. 2. Friendship the family. 3. Introduce the family to the Church. 4. Invite the family to meet with the missionaries.”4 Under this final step, the manual gives a sample monologue on how to convince the neighbors to meet the missionaries: “One way of asking friends if they would like to know about the Church is to say: ‘We enjoy being your neighbors. Would you and your family join us in a family home evening tomorrow night at seven o’clock? Two young men from our Church will give a presentation on how our Church began.”5
The manual records one convert’s real-life story to prove the point: “Shortly after we moved to a new neighborhood, I was out working in my garden when one of my neighbors offered me a huge armful of tomatoes she had just picked. This was just the beginning of what was to be a forever friendship. In the months that followed, [our neighbors] proved to be the best friends….we had ever met. They were not afraid to be too friendly and took our family in just as though we were their own family.”6
"The efforts proved to be successful. “We were always invited to Church activities but never pressured to go,” the convert continued. “When we did decide to go, our neighbors’ sweet, dependable daughter came over to babysit for us—and sometimes even refused to be paid for it. After I had had a hard day at home, my friend would ask me to come to Relief Society with her…we knew in our hearts that we wanted a more complete life like theirs.”7
This model has continued into the twenty-first century. President Gordon Hinckley told a gathering at the Salt Lake Tabernacle, “The process of bringing people into the Church is not the responsibility alone of the missionaries,” he said. “They succeed best when members become the source from which new investigators are found.”8 Speaking to a group of new mission presidents at the Provo Missionary Training Center, Apostle Dallin Oaks said: “Members simply must take a more active role in our missionary efforts at every stage: friendshipping those who are not of our faith; sharing Church materials; sharing feelings about the gospel; inviting friends to Church activities, service projects, and meetings; giving the missionaries referrals to visit our friends; inviting those friends to be taught the gospel in our homes; and fellowshipping and strengthening new converts.”9
Young Mormons are especially encouraged to make friends and then introduce the Mormon gospel to them. In one Mormon youth magazine, writer Pat Graham utilized an LDS scriptural verse10 to explain how to friendship: “President Spencer W. Kimball said that ‘usually we must warm our neighbors before we can warn them properly’ and that we should friendship and fellowship, ‘not scold and scare them.’ How can you show love to your nonmember friends and neighbors? Little kindnesses will help friends feel good about our Church. They will ‘warm’ up to the idea of learning more about the teachings of the Church.”11
The idea of getting friends to become involved in church activities is continually promoted. The official LDS Church Web site includes a section for youth with an explanation of how friendshipping should take place: “Invite your nonmember friends to Church activities where they can learn about your standards and the principles of the gospel. Include them in your midweek activities and your Sunday meetings. Help them feel welcome and wanted. Many nonmembers have come into the Church through friends who have involved them in Church activities.”12 In a Sunday school manual written specifically to LDS “young women,” the stated objective for one lesson reads: “Each young woman will extend friendship to young women of her own age and encourage them to take part in Church activities and meetings.” For the lesson application, the girls are instructed this way: “Invite the young women to choose a person that they, as a class, would like to reactivate or introduce to the gospel. Have them develop a plan to do this.”13
For those who move to a predominantly LDS community, friendshipping will not always look the same as it did in Mobsters and Mormons. Russ East, the director of Utah Partnerships for Christ, has lived in Utah for seven years. He says that he has excellent LDS neighbors; his wife regularly plays Bunco with the ladies in the neighborhood, and his daughter even babysits their children. While there is much interaction, he says, “I have not sensed much in their desire to send the missionaries our way or to get us into the LDS Church.”14 Bill McKeever, who is the head of Mormonism Research Ministry, hasn’t been friendshipped in his six years living in Utah but does not have any problem with the concept. “If the Mormons really believe they have truth and feel I am in error, I hope they would want to persuade me to their way of thinking.”15
Yet McKeever points out that Christians who have Mormon friends or neighbors should be grounded in the fundamentals of Christianity in order to understand the differences between the faiths. Since the terminology can be so very similar but with quite different meanings, this is often a difficult undertaking. It’s also hard to stand up for truth when personal relationships are at stake because nobody wants to look argumentative with friends or neighbors. If relationships hinge on a person having to join a church that rejects historic biblical teachings, however, then Christian believers need to take a stand.
Though some Christians in his neighborhood felt that Mormons practicing their “Welcome Neighbor” program were merely offering conditional friendships, Mormon author Darl Anderson believes it shouldn’t be this way. “I learned that our expressions of friendship need to show more sincerity and consistency if we want them to be correctly understood,” he wrote. “Many of our non-Mormon neighbors sincerely feel that every Mormon gesture toward them is devious…We need more communication as friends to know and do what they want for their benefit—not for our personal or selfish desires.”16
On the opposite end, while Christians ought to desire evangelistic opportunities, attempting to make friendships merely to win neighbors to Christ is also suspect. What will happen to this relationship if the other person continually rejects the Christian faith? Should this really be considered “friendship”?
THE MISSION FIELD OF DATING
Former LDS President Spencer W. Kimball was very clear in 1969 when he admonished his followers not to date nonmembers. He wrote, “Clearly, right marriage begins with right dating….Do not take the chance of dating nonmembers, or members who are untrained and faithless. A girl may say, ‘Oh, I do not intend to marry this person. It is just a ‘fun date.’ But one cannot afford to take a chance on falling in love with someone who may never accept the gospel.”17
Kimball told his members to not date until they were at least sixteen years old.18While this rule appears to be followed by most Mormon youth throughout the United States, the idea of dating only those in the church is no longer emphasized. Rather, it seems that high moral behavior is the main requirement. In an article titled “Dating FAQs” published recently in an LDS youth publication, the question was asked, “Should I date someone who is not LDS?” The answer? “Possibly, but don’t date anyone (LDS or not) who, because of low standards, will drag you down.”19
This idea is echoed on the official LDS Web site, which says Mormons should only date “those who have high standards, who respect your standards, and in whose company you can maintain the standards of the gospel of Jesus Christ.”20 Speaking to youth, current LDS prophet Thomas S. Monson stated, “Begin to prepare for a temple marriage as well as for a mission. Proper dating is a part of that preparation….Because dating is a preparation for marriage, ‘date only those who have high standards.’”21
Many local LDS congregations host weekend dances and other social events where their young people are encouraged to invite nonmember friends. With hormones raging, many nonmembers end up becoming attracted to the wholesome Latter-day Saints whom they meet. In the past few months, I have counseled two former Christian high school teenage male students, each of whom had independently become romantically involved with Mormons. They both were encouraged to participate in the missionary lessons and join the LDS Church if they hoped to take their relationships to the next level. Granted, it was the choice of these young men to date outside their faith, but they ended up getting pressured to convert to Mormonism. Neither one had even thought about cajoling the girls to leave Mormonism for Christianity. Despite the fact that they both recognized the falsehoods of Mormonism, they desperately wanted to continue their relationships but didn’t know how, unless they became Mormons.
This “missionary dating” tactic is common. Sandra Tanner believes the problem is especially prevalent with those attending college. “I often get calls from Christian parents who are deeply concerned about their son or daughter because they have started to date a Mormon at college and have gotten involved in the LDS college social group,” she said. “Often the person has joined the LDS Church without even telling the parents, informing them on their next school break. By that time, the person is often in a serious relationship that will lead to a temple wedding, which the parents will not be allowed to witness.”22 Bill McKeever adds, “I have seen far too many cases of Christian young people rejecting their faith in order to win the ‘love’ of a Mormon.”23
At a recent talk that we gave at a Christian church, two families—one LDS, the other Christian—attended together. Their twenty-year-old college-aged children—the girl is LDS, the boy a Christian—had been dating for several years and were getting more serious in their relationship. In fact, the only college that the boy had applied and been accepted to was LDS Church-owned Brigham Young University. The Christian parents were distraught with their boy’s choices, as it certainly appeared that he was moving much closer to Mormonism than she was to evangelical Christianity. Going to one meeting on the topic of Mormonism probably wasn’t going to change the way things were already headed.
It would appear that the advice that Spencer Kimball gave to his people more than four decades ago remains wise. “Mixed faith” marriages are a recipe for disaster, to both the couple and the children. Utilizing the concept of 2 Corinthians 6:14 when speaking to Christian missions teams visiting Utah, Russ East says, “I always send home the message that God does not approve when two oxen are unequally yoked.”24
With the dynamics that can occur between a boy and a girl, this is probably the most dangerous of situations. Love can be very emotional, and when the differences between the two religions are minimized (“We’re ‘Christian’ too!” many Mormons will argue) and ignorant young lovers become confused, the results can be disastrous. Rarely do we hear stories of Mormons becoming Christians in order to save a relationship. Instead, we hear far too often how Christians are becoming Mormons because their relationship with another human means more to them than their relationship with God.
In addition, “missionary dating” is neither biblical nor ethical and should not be a practice of faithful Christians. While the Bible does say that believers should be “shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves,” using “love” in an attempt to change the faith of those they’re dating is certainly a wrong application of this passage. The end does not justify the means. As Bill McKeever puts it, “A Christian who manipulates a Mormon’s emotions for the sole purpose of conversion places his integrity in a precarious situation.”25
It is self-centered as well. If dating is to be considered the first step to courtship, which leads to engagement and ultimately marriage, then a biblically sound Christian has no business getting romantically involved with an unbeliever, even if it’s “just” dating. The risk is high and the fallout ultimately will end up hurting both parties.
THE INTRINSIC VALUE OF NEIGHBORLINESS
In the short time that my family has resided in Utah, our neighbor is turning out to be one of the best we’ve ever had. He has encouraged my wife in her new business venture. He made sure that we were welcomed to the neighborhood’s Fourth of July party.26 He spent three hours with me one sultry July morning fixing my house’s swamp cooler and helped me repair a lawnmower. And, though he knows I’m not LDS, he has not yet mentioned Mormonism or asked about having my family meet the missionaries.
Have we been targeted for “friendshipping”? An invitation to a local Mormon ward’s barbeque was taped to our front door just two days after moving in. Perhaps he put it there, though I don’t think so. Either way, I’m sure he would love to see our family become members of his church. At the same time, wouldn’t I like to see his family come to know the true Jesus as described in the Bible? Christians certainly should be cautious when entering into friendships with those from other religions. Still, I will do my part to continue this relationship and pray that I, in turn, will “love (my) neighbor as (my)self,” as Jesus said in Matthew 22:39, and be the best neighbor this man has ever known.
Eric Johnson now lives in Utah and works full-time with Mormonism Research Ministry (www.mrm.org). He also teaches college classes and is an associate editor for the Apologetics Study Bible for Students (Holman, 2010).
NOTES
1. Personal e-mail, July 21, 2010.
2. Ensign, March 2003, 54.
3. Sharing the Gospel through Priesthood Missionary Service filmstrip, 1975.
4. Lesson 9, Duties and Blessings of the Priesthood: Basic Manual for Priesthood Holders, Part B, 1996, 81–85.
5. Ibid, 85.
6. Ibid, 79.
7. Ibid.
8. “Feed the Lambs, Feed the Sheep,” Ensign, May 1999, 104. From a satellite broadcast given at the Salt Lake Tabernacle on February 21, 1999.
9. “The Role of Members in Conversion,” Ensign, March 2003, 55, based on his talk on June 20, 2000.
10. Doctrines and Covenants 88:81 says, “It becometh every man who hath been warned to warn his neighbor.”
11. “Sharing Time: Friendshipping with Love,” Friend, February 1986, 42.
12. http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,30-1-7-4,00.html.
13. Young Women Manual 1 Lesson 20, http://www.lds-youngwomen.com/taxonomy/term/6763/friendshipping.
14. Personal e-mail, July 21, 2010.
15. Ibid.
16. Soft Answers to Hard Feelings (Orem, UT: Granite Publishing, 1998), 80.
17. The Miracle of Forgiveness (Salt Lake City: Publisher’s Press, 1986), 241–42.
18. “The Marriage Decision,” Ensign, February 1975, 2–6.
19. “Dating FAQs,” New Era, April 2010, 20–32.
20. http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,30-1-7-4,00.html.
21. “Preparation Brings Blessings,” Liahona, May 2010, 64.
22. Personal e-mail, July 21, 2010.
23. Ibid.
24. Ibid.
25. Personal e-mail, July 22, 2010.
26. Because July 4, 2010, landed on a Sunday, this year’s festivities were actually held on July 3. Most secular holidays in the state of Utah are celebrated on Saturdays when they land on Sundays."
CONTINUING with www.equip.org: "Are Mormons Christians?
ARE MORMONS CHRISTIANS- Introduction
Better known as Mormons, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints now numbers over 9 million members in almost 130 territories around the globe. Are they really the true followers of Jesus Christ as they claim to be?
ARE MORMONS CHRISTIANS- A different Jesus
To quote one Mormon apologist: “Latter-day Saints are Christians because they emphatically believe in Christ, use His name in their official church title, and believe in the Bible and the Book of Mormon which testify repeatedly of the reality of Christ and the truth of His teachings.” Jesus Christ, no doubt, plays a central role in Mormon theology. However, Paul warns that to be a Christian, one must believe in the true Christ—the Jesus of the Bible—and not another Jesus. In fact, we would all agree with the late Mormon apostle Bruce R. McConkie when he says, “it matters not that people simply say they believe in Christ, or think they are followers of Moses, or the Apostles. What counts is the reality.” And the reality is that Mormons believe in a Jesus vastly different than the Jesus of the Bible.
ARE MORMONS CHRISTIANS- Many gods
You see, Mormonism teaches that Jesus is just one of countless other gods—a belief known as polytheism. Now, a Mormon may try to deny being a polytheist by affirming the existence of other gods, while in the same breath worshipping only God the Father. However, don’t forget Christ’s proclamation in Mark chapter 12—that God’s most important commandment is to recognize that there is only one God and only one Lord.
ARE MORMONS CHRISTIANS- Conclusion
Where does this leave Jesus in Mormon Theology? Well, Mormons say they believe that Jesus is Jehovah, the LORD, the God of Israel, yet they refuse to pray to Him, as Jehovah Himself commands in the Old Testament (cf. Deut. 4:7; 2 Chron. 7:14; Pss. 5:2; 32:6; Jer. 29:7,12)—the same Jehovah who knows of no other God besides Himself, the One worshipped and honored by all true Christians (Ex. 34:14; cf. Matt. 2:11; 14:33; Luke 24:52). And so, judging by its own teachings, Mormonism cannot be rightly considered Christian. On Mormonism and the question “Are Mormons Christians?”, that’s the CRI Perspective. I’m Hank Hanegraaff."
TL;DR
Uh, sweetie, how is this different from what some other fundamentalist Christian sects do? BG says he's a Christian; he's also said he's a Mormon. So, he's a Mormon Christian. We have Lutheran Christians. We have Catholic Christians. We have Episcopalian Christians. We have Presbyterian Christians. Know what the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints is? Wait for it, wait for it! A CHRISTIAN CHURCH!!! I can't believe I've just shouted in all-caps. Then we have me, and my potential Jewish boyfriend. I'm a spiritualist who was raised as a Protestant, whose father was a Catholic, whose siblings were baptized in Holy Mother Church. My guy is a reasonably observant Jew who observes the holidays and goes to temple every so often. Sooooooo, who's the bigger threat to your precious interpretation of Christianity, me and my intended, or BG? And could you please try to write coherently in the English language what you actually think? Try this. Start with a simple sentence. Like this one as an example: See Spot Run. Now this: Spot is a good dog. And this one: Spot can do tricks. Notice how simple the sentence structure is? It conveys a coherent thought. There's a premise and a conclusion. Make believe you're writing a conversation between Mrs. Premise and Mrs. Conclusion. Remember that skit? Or maybe you're too much of a little boy to go back that far. But you might be able to find it on Youtube somewhere; I admit I haven't tried. but at this point, you've utterly failed to convince anyone as to your point because I don't think anyone knows what it is enough to agree or disagree with you. Keep trying though. But the definition of insanity, or so I've heard, is doing something over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again and thinking the next time it's gunna work.
Johndy's right. There are a lot of Christian organizations who emphasize now the whole thing on being friendly to us heathens to bring us in, or bring us back. They're moving away from trying to drumbeat debate us with apologetics and the like.
But yunno what else? There are also countless Christians who are just good, decent people who are nice to other people because that is the right thing to do. Be they Mormons, Evangelicals, Catholics, or any number of others.
The last thing we need to do now is start holding other people's good acts in suspicion. An invitation is just that: an invitation. I wouldn't be offended in the least if one of your evangelicals were to say, "Hey, Leo, I know you're an atheist. we have this really smart apologist who talks to atheists all the time giving a speech this weekend. Wanta come?" I have the freedom to say no thank you, just as they have the freedom to ask. Now, if they press, I'd start off politely enough, by explaining I've been around the apologetics block since the 1980s, and while I can't possibly be familiar with every single argument, I'm familiar with a great many of them. And the methods they use. It's not likely to work now if it didn't then.
Being asked or invited is not being manipulated. I'm personally not likely to ask a Christian to a Rational Inquiry meetup or a speech given by a skeptic, unless they had first shown some personal interest. Even my own daughter I have not done this, and not just because it would make her mom a little sad.
I'm really not so sure that many Christians, whichever kind, are really trying to wear everyone else down by proselytizing. I knew countless of them who didn't pass out tracts, hell, I didn't either. What was that popular sentiment by St. Francis of Assisis? "Preach the gospel, and if you must, use words." Seems to me many Christians live like that, and maybe give themselves too much grief for not living up to an impossible standard.
It's impossible to claim Christians of any stripe aren't moral or nice enough, then when they are, you claim they are just doing it for converts. And yes, Terrance, I am familiar with the Evangelical arguments against Mormonism. However, they are more Christian than the pagans, or we atheists who subscribe to no gods at all.
And, people know if someone is "being nice" to get a favor, e.g. an ear to conversion, and when it is not the case. There are a few who do that, and many who do not. I've met both, had to get rides from the latter, and frustrated their efforts to reform my sensibilities re: basic scientific theories the Evangelicals reject.
I'm not interested in recalling the heathens and athiests back to the flock,
and I don't think it's right for segments of the Christian community to go out
and try and force someone to re-join the fold... if you want to come back to
the flock, even for a visit on the odd Sunday, I'm more than happy to
welcome you with open arms, no questions asked... if you choose to stay
away, that's fine too - no hard feelings on my part. I should think that in the
eyes of some of the more fundamentalists, I've got one leg over the fence
myself.
I think this song describes our original poster.
Terrence, one more thing your sources are not quite accurate about. We are indeed supposed to do good deeds for those around us, being nice and friendly. It is only natural that if you're kind and friendly to someone, leading by example, they might be interested in what you have to say. If I'm not mistaken, this is a pretty Christian thing to do. Love thy neighbor as thyself, to good unto others, judge not lest ye be judged. pretty basic stuff, Christian, and humanist. Our missionaries do not like tracting (knocking on doors), and getting references helps. But it's more about being a good and honest human being than the numbers. Making actual friendships. And while religious differences might inevitably pop up if a friend isn't a member, it is not always the case. That's people for you, fowlable, normal people. That kindness and niceness is called being decent human beings and it extends to everyone. I have a lot more non-member friends than member ones myself. I am not interested in beginning a relationship to convert the "heathens". I don't even use the word; don't believe in it. I don't know any Latter-Day saints personally who do use the word, though I'm sad to say they're probably out there. No, I'm interested in meeting people, developing relationships with them for the sake of their company. I love discussing my church, sure. I'd say most people enjoy talking about what they believe. I also love sharing differing ideas; learning of differing points of view and ways of life. I hate debating for the sake of contention, but honest discussion is fun. Will I invite people to events? Sure I will. And if they find or feel something that appeals to them while attending a baptism, or a social event, or even a service, then great. That's what happened to me. I was very much a non Christian, then I went to an event and thought, hey, this makes a lot of sense. So I started researching and reading the scriptures, and yes, I even prayed about it. (It's a simplified account of my joining the church mind you). And all of this is pretty normal human behavior to me.
As for dating non-members and marrying within our faith, that is a personal choice. It is true that in order to be married in the temple for time and eternity one does need to be a worthy member. And really, our standards for temple worthiness aren't extreme; I can give you a list if you like.) But Legal, lawful marriages happen between us and non members (religious and otherwise) all the time, and they are done in the chapel. It is encouraged to marry a member, because we believe marriage is not "until death do ye part", but supposed to be eternal, and to be eternal two people need to be sealed together. But this is not a requirement. I was a non-member when I started dating the girl I eventually got married to, and it took us four years before we were able to be sealed in the temple. While there were some members of the church who did not want us together based on who I was and what I was, they were the minority. Because there are holier than thou types in every aspect of life, religious and non religious. They are just intollerant people who are unable to fathom something other than what they are .
Terrence, you've struggled mightily to smeer my church. I've listened to your arguements posted mainly through anti-Mormon sites, and I've responded to many of them as best I can, even though you're clearly just trying to get a reaction. There are those who inquire honestly and those who inquire for the sake of contention, you my friend come off as the latter. And I would like to know why? Why are you so bent on proving me a non-Christian. What's it worth to you? You utterly ignored this question before, now, please do me the favor of answering. I get the distinct impression you have a personal vendetta against us, or are so closed-minded that you feel nothing else but your oppinion can possibly have marrit. If one of us has done something to offend or upset you, if we have hurt you, then I can only appologize, even though it is not my church, but an individual or group therein who are responsible. Have you ever read any of our scriptures and cross-referenced them with the Old and new Testament to figure out why we believe what we do? Have you read any of the messages posted by our general authorities, many of which reference not only our scriptures but the bible on a constant basis? Have you even read our articles of faith?, or gone on mormon.org and searched to find answers to what we actually believe from the resources and the millions of people who believe it? Have you drawn any conclusions based on your own personal experience with us? if not, that's fine. You've got your own personal beliefs about who and what Jesus is and what he expects of you, you're fine with those, and that's great. But if all your oppinions and condemnations are born of the oppinions of others, some of whom clearly have an axe to grind against us, then I ask you politely to please refrain from your anti-LDS propaganda.
And leo, I love your quote from St. Francis. I don't know anything about him, but his words embody what I personally believe.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLaM3Je9i8XYAl1tHGutqIFLUsWhU2DHgG
I just wanna add THIS: it's not only MORMANS who claim to be CHRISTIANS--if you were to have ATTENTITIVELY VIEWED OTHER VIDEOES that I've posted in this topic EARLIER, you'll DEFINITELY KNOW this to be UTTERLY TRUE--and as far as any PERSONAL VENDETTA, which you CERTAINLY couldn't get ANY FURTHER from the TRUTH than THAT, JESUS (JESUS of the ONLY TRUE BIBLE, GOD'S INNERRENT WORD, that is) neither CONDEMNS US SINNERS, nor CONDONES OUR SIN, which is EXACTLY how WE are COMMANDED to BEHAVE towards each other, which ONLY MEANS that when I state that not only MORMANS, but OTHERS who claim to be CHRISTIANS, who's examples of doctrine are NOT TOTALLY, whether PARTIALLY or NOT AT ALL, REFLECTIVE of EXACTLY WHO JESUS REALLY IS, and WHAT HE REALLY REPRESENTS, are NOT CHRISTIANS, AT ALL, ADMITTEDLY, IS a CONDEMNATION, but ONLY to SUCH DOCTRINES, THEMSELVES, and NEVER to the "INDOCTRINATEES," if you will. Now, if this STILL doesn't answer your question, BG, could it be that you'd rather question the answer? Just a thought.
Sooooooooooooooo, what are you saying?
NO, it's not what I'M saying--what's GOD'S WORD saying?
Noooo... we are asking you to speak plain English. Use small words, since you can't make larger words make logical sense.
See? That wasn't hard!
Kate
I certainly do question your answer, Terrence. I question your answer, your motive and your words. But most of all I question your deeds and your actions here on these boards. But despite all of that, , I still do not doubt your Christianity. But I say this to you Terrence, though I have said it before. there's more to being Christian than believing in his name. Faith in Christ is paramount; in him and through his blood we are sanctified. But he tells us to not only believe in him, but to follow him. "If ye love me, keep my commandments." If ye love me, come follow me." We are Christian in what we do, how we act to others and how we conduct ourselves. So many of us draw close to Christ with our lips, only to flee from him in our hearts, and by our actions become accountable to him for sins committed, even in his name. People like that are the reason so many are uninterested in learning of the Gospel. Such people are the reasons there are so many splinter groups in Christianity with so many differing interpretations. People like that are the reasons Cody and those like him are justified in their disdain and hatred of us as a collective body. We represent a power responsible for greavous wrong-doings throughout history, even to this day; wrong-doings perpetrated not by God, but by men (and the occasional woman) who use scripture as justification for murder, rape, torture, jenocide and mass condemnation. And in so much as we do wickedness to others, we do it unto Christ. He said so a few times. Likewise, in so much as we show compassion and love and friendship to others, we do it unto him. Terrence, I AM Christian. I study about Christ, I have faith in Christ, and I testify of Christ's reality. He is my brother, my savior, and yes, my God. no matter how many half-truths and blatent fallacies you post, the fact of my Christianity remains. I strive every day to learn more about his teachings, to live them, and to show kindness to those around me. I'll innevitably fall short, and that is where his atonement and sacrifice will make up for my shortcomings. I'll have lots to answer for, but Christ will Sanctify. That's what he asks of all of us. And if all my faith and all of my actions are not enough for him, then he is not the God either of us believe him to be.
“NO, it's not what I'M saying--what's GOD'S WORD saying?” Uh, I dunno, because quite frankly you’re a shitty advocate for the god you supposedly serve. Half the time you don’t even speak for that god. You cut and paste other people’s words, apparently because your own just aren’t up to the task. And if there’s any doubt about that, when you do write, you can’t be followed. If you’re attempting to persuade us that your interpretation of your god’s word is the true and right interpretation, you really have failed miserably. If you look at BG’s postings in comparison, they are pretty well-written. He makes a good case for his interpretation of Christianity, and guess what? He’s not only spoken for himself and not used other people’s words, he’s used his words well. Overall, he’s made a far better accounting of himself both as a Christian and as a human being than you ever wil. I think he is humble in his approach, even while acknowledging some of the admitted past misdeeds committed by Christians in the name of Christianity. Your interpretation is self-righteous and divisive, so it’s no wonder that so many of us here have a cynical bent toward Christianity as a whole. In fact, you haven’t even proven, at least to my satisfaction, that your interpretation of the word of your god is even your own. You can’t even write a cohesive sentence unless you paste other people’s words into your posting. I’d be willing to bet that even your god is laughing at you right now!
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL1mzSRO0dbhUYJoYLRxZBACzRQMMsxnFF
Case in point. Not your words, but someone else's, and we gotta watch that crap?
CASE-AND-POINT RESPONSE: it's like I've been saying COUNTLESS TIMES, and I CERTAINLY WON'T BE SURPRISED if THIS won't be the LAST time I'm saying this: of COURSE, they're not MY WORDS, nor are they the WORDS of whom these videoes are done by, nor are they ANYBODY ELSE'S WORDS, EXCEPT for the ONLY ONE, WHOSE WORD is ETERNAL, that YOU call "CRAP," since it's HE, NOT ME, THEM, or WHOEVER ELSE, that you CONSTANTLY REJECT, much to your own peril, unfortunately. EVEN IF they WERE "MY WORDS," or BG'S, or WEST COAST GIRL'S, or WHOEVER, WHAT could EVER MAKE ME THINK that since you BLATANTLY REJECT HIS WORD, thus REJECT HIM, consequently, that you CERTAINLY couldn't/wouldn't POSSIBLY REJECT US, or anyone ELSE that I haven't named, if SUCH WORDS were THEIRS, LIKEWISE?
I meant: "if such words were OURS," NOT "THEIRS," toward the end of my last post.
Huh?
EXACTLY!
Whatev.
Persistence is futile.
Yeah, but I'm bored and pathetic? Haven't gotten dick in three years? Uh, never mind.
Anything more I have to say at this point will be vain repetition. I'mm still more than happy to answer any real question anyone has, and I must also show my appreciation. Between Cody and Terrence I've been prompted to do some in-depth research into the history of the LDS church, and I have found the experience both strengthening and illuminating. So, thank you both for that.:)
NATURALLY, BG--the more "ALLUMINATING" it SOUNDS, the MORE DILLUSIONAL you've chosen to BECOME--I'M not saying so; GOD is.
No, you did. I just read your post, and it's self-evident that you wrote it, not a god analog. Please stop insulting us.
Am I dillusional then, Terrence? Well so be it. I and millions of other Latter-Day saints are all just a part of an engenious world-wide conspiracy. Tons of people gave up their homes posessions and lives needlessly chasing some grand lie. If all my study and spiritual experiences, and the spiritual experiences of all those others are just some grand-scale brainwashing, then so be it. Because at the end of the day, I'd rather believe in that delusion than the hypocritical bigoting and ungodly sentiments I read in your words and in those of Bill Keller. If I am going to hell for believing in a Jesus Christ who you deem somehow different from yours, then let the flame consume me now. But I will say this, Terrence. You know very little about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Your belief is founded upon anti-LDS propaganda, and the preacher you so diligently serve uses his talents to spread fallacy, not only about my church. So before you start a pissing contest with me, maybe make sure you actually know about what it is you're so zealously attacking. Or better yet, live and let live, because despite what you'd like others to think, we both believe in the same God. Maybe if you took the time to learn about us you'd realize that.
The Flying Spaghetti Monster says that Terrance is delusional.
That makes as much sense as Terrance's posts, right?
Leo - my two year old niece and nephew make more sense than Terrance's
posts....
Why continue to give the op the satisfaction?
A very good question, and one I ask myself whenever I or anyone else wastes their time replying to such contentious posts. I suppose it's a testament to something that a thread like this can reach a hundred and eight posts, while anything creative anyone posts garners only a few replies.
Personally I think the OP has penis envy. Someone tied a ribbon around it once and said that's cute, now go home to Mommy.
I know it's frustrating, but is bombarding him with insults really all that necessary?
Perhaps not. A bit unworthy, but I guess I was feeling a bit pissy yesterday.
Maybe not necessary, but, cathartic?
Yeah. Definitely yeah.